Author: Bill Cecil-Fronsman
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:10:37 -0600
I should have know better -- but it happened anyway. Yesterday with about 5 minutes left in class, the football player in the back row (of a fairly small class) did it again. In the middle of my discourse on the Aaron Burr Conspiracy, he closed his notebook, dragged his backback on to the table, put his books inside, and sat with his hands folded looking decidedly uninterested. It's not the first time he's done this by any means.
I know what I'm *supposed* to do -- I'm supposed to ignore it. At worst, I should take him aside after class and say something. But for whatever reason, yesterday I let it get to me. I stopped for a moment and stared. Nothing happened. I asked him in front of the class if he was aware of how rude this behavior was. He sat there stoicly, not saying anything. We spent about a minute exchanging dirty looks before I went on.
I assume I'm not the only one to encounter this kind of rudeness. What have folks out there done about it? Has anything worked?
Bill Cecil-Fronsman zzceci@acc.wuacc.edu Department of History Office: (913) 231-1010 x1317 Washburn University Fax: (913) 231-1084
Topeka, KS 66621
Author: Virginia Boynton
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:09:19 -0600
I don't see it as losing your cool, just as attempting to maintain a classroom atmosphere that fosters learning.
My students will periodically start packing up to leave before the class period is over, and when they do I just make a general announcement that we're not done yet and would they please stop rustling. For whatever reason, they do as I ask. As for singling out folks -- I've had to do that (more often at the beginning of the class) to ask them to put away newspapers, etc. I just call on them by name and ask them to stop reading the "Courier" (student newspaper), however riveting it might be, and pay attention to class. I generally do this in a light-hearted way. I should add that our survey classes are capped at 45 students, so newspaper-reading, whispering, packing up, etc., distracts not only their classmates, but also me. (A fact which I point out when necessary.)
Ginny Boynton
Western Illinois University
ON SPRING BREAK!!
Author: Robert Slayton
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:09:31 -0600
>
Usually when this happens other students follow suit, and there is a
general rumbling and shuffling (although it does not usually come till a
minute or two before). At that point I tell the class that I have five
minutes of their life left before they can go on to other things.
Robert Slayton
Chpaman University
Author: Gordon E Harvey
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:09:40 -0600
Dear Bill,
Here's a question you could ask him. Ask him if he likes it when the fans athe games leave early or do not come at all. if he does not, then tell him it makes you feel the same way when he "leaves" (mentally) you lecture early. I was lecturing this week and a guy right in front of the lectern had his notebook open but took no notes and stared at me as if i were some idiot. I thought about saying something to him, but held off because I knew the final had a major essay question on the material I was teaching.
later.
Gordon E. Harvey
Ph.D Student
Department of History
310 Thach Hall
Auburn University, AL 36849-5207
(334) 844-4360
harvege@mail.auburn.edu
Author: peter c holloran
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 11:10:31 -0600
Rude students are a more common problem, and I am not the only one to notice this. Four years ago a Japanese student in my college composition class wrote an essay (on the assigned topic, what do you find most surprising about your first semester in college?) on how rude her classmates were to the professors. I read the essay to the class. You could hear a pin drop. Rude behavior declined sharply for the rest of the semester. I am convinced students are rude because nobody ever teaches them how to act properly. But is the college classroom the place for this training?
Peter Holloran, Mount Ida College, pch@world.std.com
Author: Omohundro@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:11:18 -0600
Bill Cecil-Fronsman complains about his prize football player. I think it's great that he even had his books and notes out for most of the class. Students on my campus regularly come in late (I'd lock the door from the inside, but that's not possible, and they'd just bang on it anyway) and they leave early, and the great majority are not athletes. Sometimes they leave in the middle of class; often they come back. I dare not say anything about bladder problems, inability to focus, or sit still for 50 minutes or I'd be thought insensitive. Any sort of academic etiquette or mere common courtesy disappeared a long time ago. (I witnessed the same problem at Harvard in the mid-70s; students would regularly come in late for a lecture class by a distinguished historian. He could lock the main doors from the inside, and told them not to bother knocking or banging; but they could enter from the top of the auditorium, and often skipped noisily down to sit in the front rows in the middle of his lectures.)
But I too have had my problems with the jocks. A star track student at our school some years ago missed the final exam. Claimed he had overslept, or gotten the time or date wrong. I forget. I wouldn't let him have a makeup. He threatened me and I reported the incident to the campus police. Fortunately, he went away, graduated I presume. What I found interesting was that just before the incident with the final he had run at a meet and did the mile in under four minutes--which is not particularly noteworthy these days, except for the fact that he fell down twice while doing it. I've always wondered what performance enhancing substance he was on.
One of our vice-provosts has actually proposed doing away with our athletic teams because of the high student fees that result, for teams that are poorly supported and games that have small attendance. One year only seven tried out for the women's basketball team. Whether a struggling commuter campus like ours where most students work full or part-time, have families and other committments, and little time or interest in attending any kind of after school events should even be trying to field varsity intercollegiate teams is another question entirely. My point is that for most of the past 18 years we haven't been able to be competitive; a notable exception being women's track which I'd keep.
Michael Chesson, U/Mass-Boston
omohundro@aol.com
Author: Thomas Raymond Wellock
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 14:49:39 -0600
Bill:
What you are "supposed" to do is probably the best course. Unless their behavior is interfering with conducting the class, I don't think humiliating students in front of their peers is constructive. They are likely to respond with defiance as your student did. It is irritating as all get out, but biting your tongue and pulling them aside later is less demeaning.
The stopping class and staring response is probably best when the problem has to be dealt with immediately. Just a few days ago I had a student who was not even in the class sit-in and talk to his friend in such loud voice that I could hear him even when I was speaking. I kept losing my train of thought. First I ignored it. Next I stopped for 5 seconds and stared. Finally I stopped for 1 minute (an uncomfortably long time for the student). Throwing him out was going to be my next step, but he got the message and left.
Tom Wellock
Instructor
California State Hayward
Author: James B. Schick
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 16:44:17 -0600
I had thought the behavior of ostentatiously closing a notebook and getting ready to go -- at precisely 5 minutes before the actual end of class -- was purely local. It's not exactly reassuring that this is more ubiquitous. . . .
I do think we should distinguish between behaviors which are self-contained -- not taking notes, staring vacantly -- and others which are disruptive -- coming in late, leaving early, talking loudly enough to be heard by more than the person spoken to. We are supposed to be sensitive to the disruptive student's psyche, but what of the rights and sensibilities of the other students (not to mention the professor, of course, who I guess has no feelings worth respecting in this prescription?)? They are frequently as put out by such actions as the teacher and they welcome a timely comment -- can't one be polite in mentioning such an act without damaging feelings? -- to halt the practice in question. I would also suppose anyone rude enough to engage in these behaviors will likely not have their tender feelings too bruised by the encounter with such a majestic authority as a professor.
Since this began with a football player -- and I would wonder why this information was relevant, are they to be considered a type? -- I am again brought to ponder the eternal truth that a coach -- for an extracurricular, voluntary activity -- can require the same errant student to "take a lap" or the like for minor infractions and inflict worse punishments, yet professors of curricular activites debate the possibility of a harsh word. Would we had the command over students' minds a coach regularly exercises over their bodies. . . .
--
Dr. James B. M. Schick - History Computer Review
Pittsburg State University - Pittsburg, Kansas 66762
jschick@pittstate.edu - fax: 316-232-7515 - phone: 316-235-4317
Author: Ericap5@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 16:45:28 -0600
All of us at one time or another has had a "football player" who packed up his bags and his mind well before the end of class. The question Bill raised about a solution to the problem posed a false choice, however. Ignoring the boor or confronting him (even after class) are not the only options.
I know there are choices other than the ones I will outline below, but this should be a start, They are presented in order of "teacher power," with the least first. (The stare down in Bill's class would probably bruise him some with other students in the class.)
The key, of course, is for students to understand that the teacher or professor ends the class and not the bell or the students. To that end, I have consciously tried over the years to develop some sort of spectacular or dramatic or humorous conclusions to my classes. There are some students, I dare say, who really look forward to them.
Not all of course. Bill said he had a small class. Why not end class with a series of questions based on the lecture? The teacher doesn't have to call on the "football player;" it's enough to call on all the students around him. Another, parallel approach is to move from the front of the room to a desk near the "football player." If he doesn't get the idea that class is still going on, perhaps the college can arrange for a brain transplant.
A final approach to students shutting down early and one that makes some sense in terms of getting immediate feedback from your own efforts, is to regularly ask students for the final five minutes of class to write about one or two major ideas advanced in the class, including a couple of pieces of supporting evidence. This approach can be open note and often is seen as a real plus by "traditional" students since they can get a leg up on a better grade simply by paying attention--what they were planning to do in any event. And the "football player" will be too busy writing to pack up his books.
I know there are other solutions, and I await them to improve my own teaching.
Eric Rothschild
Author: PDQLY@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:16:03 -0600
One of the better ways to handle breaches of class etiquiette is through humor. Rustling papers and packs at the end of the period were dealt with by my sort of aimlessly wondering why it is that the earliest things we learn are often the last forgotten --pause--"remember when your primary teacher had the children put away their crayons and papers and fold their hands and sit quietly until the bell? And in a few days you knew when it was time to play pick-up and you never forgot." Usually the class would titter and laugh, but the lesson that they were no longer children with crayons who had to leave a clean room for a teacher dying to get out stuck. You can embelish the comparison to fit the situation. Sometimes a little gentle ridicule would remind even an obtuse boor that she/he was guilty of "pick-up." I never had to go that far, but I was prepared to hand a crayon to a blatant offender. You have to be light and off-hand and direct some of the ridicule toward the human condition, including yourself.
You say you can't lock the door from the inside? Try a key on the outside. After everyone is informed of the tardiness policy, it's fair and effective. Only once did I have to remind a knocker that his disruption of the class would be reported. I'm not talking about wandering in a few minutes late--many "students" today believe that thirty minutes is not tardy--even for an exam.
Reading about guns in the high and elementary schools, I'm concerned about the future of the college classroom. You may think it alarmist, but I firmly believe that if we don't maintain "manners" we may as well be ready to accept a blackboard jungle on the campus. It's our responsibility to command respect and to demand that the administration supports us. And yes, in the days of the permanent adjunct and the non-tenure track, the established faculty have to lead the way. Stay loose and good luck.
Phil Drimmel,
Daytona Beach
Author: Eileen Walsh
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:17:40 -0600
Hello H-Survey:
I recall the "5-minute signal" from being an undergrad in California in the 1970s, so no, it is not isolated or recent behavior. Back then, it would annoy and embarrass me very much, especially in classes that I savored. The behavior reminds me of those people in movie theatres who do not stay for the credits (which is their business) but stand, stretch, put on jackets, and talk about where they're going next or what they thought of the film. They are clueless as to the impact of their behavior on those in the rows behind them. So are some students oblivious to their effect on classmates and teachers. Especially if they are passive before us (as before a TV set), they honestly think no one knows or cares what they do in the "privacy" of their space bubbles. Others - I know from being told later - are just counting the seconds until they can get to the restroom, or just remembered they parked at a meter and might or might not have a ticket by now, etc. In addition, of course, are those who know full well they are being rude and are just fine with that. Some seem to relish it, and why does not matter since it simply is not okay.
I guess I just want to broaden the range of possible motivations for bad behavior. Being aware of the variety of causes for such behavior makes it easier to avoid jumping to an unsettling conclusion (e.g., "that student is taking me on;" "football players are only in college to play;" etc.) even though that certainly is the case at times. As an anecdote, I once had the entire football team of a small, private college in my class. They took the entire back row as their territory, and annoyed the rest of the class with their talking and habitual late entrances until the day I stopped them in their tracks and told them not to bother sitting down, they could leave now and try again tomorrow (thank goodness they did). Several of them failed the course - but one earned a B (and he could not have cheated his way to that grade - lots of in-class work based on the readings and lectures). I'll always be glad that fellow did well - because I was sorely tempted to generalize about football players. Now I have to use qualifiers!
Eileen Walsh
Asst. Prof. of History
Bemidji State University
Bemidji MN 56601-2699
(218) 755-4355
ewalsh@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu
Author: ThomABD@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:19:45 -0600
Although I believe that the best way to prevent students from coming in late and/or packing up or leaving early is to always make your lectures and class discussions as interesting as possible--"an ounce of prevention," so to speak--right up to the end of class. But I realize that there will always be those students who will be disrespectful no matter how interesting the material and presentation.
On the very first day of class I tell my students that being habitually late and/or leaving early without good reason is unacceptable. If they need to be late or leave early on a regular basis I expect to be informed of this and the reason for it (these students, such as those with a job or other slight time conflict, get "reserved" seats right next to the door so that they can come and go with the least amount of disturbance--the rest of the students have no assigned seating). In addition, since there is usually something being announced, handed out, or handed back at the beginning of class, those who need to come in late know that they have to stay late to obtain these very crucial things--there's a certain justice to this in and of itself. Because I make my expectations clear on the first day of class, it then becomes the students' responsibility to live up to them. Most of my students find me to be very congenial, helpful, and accomodating to their collective and individual needs--until I feel that they have crossed the line and tried to take advantage (to put it in the students' own terms, until they "diss" me). When this happens (although it happens pretty rarely), I refuse to cut them any slack, and when I remind them of my expectations of them, they usually do not argue too much.
As for those who hold their own disruptive discussions in class, I simply ask them if there is a question they need to ask me, or something they'd like to share with the class--sometimes they do have a question, and they do ask it at that point. If they are just making small talk, they quickly say no and usually take the hint. If this doesn't work, and the talking continues, then I opt for a more dramatic approach. Sometimes walking near the person helps. If they are in the back of the room, however, this may be too disruptive to the lecture. If I know the student has a sense of humor (which most students do), I will, as I lecture, pick up a piece of scrap paper, press it into a ball as I walk closer to the student, then say the student's name, tell him/her, "HEADS UP," and toss the paper their way (underhand) so that they can catch it. When the student looks at me quizzically, I say, "Just wanted to get your attention--nice catch, by the way."
When someone starts to pack up early and is loud enough to be disturbing, I offer to race them when class is over to wherever it is they need to go so badly--I mention that I can run pretty fast, even in heels. This is a humorous way to get the point across, and it usually works. If I am covering particulary crucial material at the time, sometimes instead I will opt to mention to the entire class, with more emphasis than normal, that this material would make an excellent test question--so they may want to make a special note of it. Usually the premature packer opts to unpack at least his/her notebook and pen at this point.
If the entire class starts to pack up early--and this suggestion is not for the faint of heart I will do something dramatic to get their attention back, such as dancing a little jig; lauching into joyous song; climbing up onto a table or desk to continue my lecture; walking over to the light switch, turning it on and off really fast while I make the sound of a siren; or, if it has become a habitual thing and I'm getting pretty perturbed, I scratch my fingernails loudly across the blackboard. After I get the students' attention back, I explain that "I just wanted to make sure that I was still the center of attention--it's one of the perks of being the teacher." Again, I find some well-placed humor to be the best remedy. Obviously, these tactics are not for the faint of heart--one cannot harbor much fear of embarrassment and use them effectively. I find, however, that most students, even if they may think me a bit eccentric, appreciate the extra drama and humor, especially since it reminds them of my expectations of them without being "preachy."
If anyone else has successfully tried any other tactics, please share them. I'm always looking for new suggestions.
Cathleen Thom
Marquette University
Author: SusieQ@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:20:43 -0600
It would be hard to improve on Eric Rothchild's methods...
But one possible solution, that works sometimes would be to call the kid in for a conference. Then, instead of reading him the riot act say something like. "Students look up to you because you play football. And clearly you are a leader. I really need your help. When you pack up to leave early, the other follow suit and pretty soon my class gets so short I can't cover the material. I look to you, a natural leader of men [and women ;-)] to set the right tone. Can I count on your cooperation?"
My experience is that such students begin with the assumption that you don't have high expectations of them (and, indeed, perhaps you didn't--that's certainly understandable) but when you win them over this way it is often very effective. If it backfires you certainly then have carte blanche to be rude forever more.
//Susan Ikenberry
Georgetown Day
Author: Kelly A. Woestman
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:22:05 -0600
Glad to know that student rudeness is one we all face. We're allowed to lose our cool occasionally - it's a good preparation for their dealings with their future bossess and we're human, after all.
I let students know up front it's one of my pet peeves when they pack up early. I inform them right at the beginning that by signing up for my course, they have agreed not to interfere with any other student's right to learn during that time AND that I will let them out on time. How many of us/our colleagues keep students late - I think for some it's a defense mechanism to let them get to their next class on time - although this doesn't escuse their rudeness.
I also let them know it breaks my concentration and then it takes me longer to finish class.
My general approach is that they aren't allowed to do anything that will interfere with anyone else's learning - talking, coming in late, leaving early. While sleeping personally offends me, it beats talking. On the other hand, I don't feel an obligation to wake them up when I'm done.
The student behavior that still shocks me the most is when they do walk in late, they walk right in front of you (in my classroom within 1 foot of me) and don't see that as a problem. I can tell them they're blocking the other students' views and it doesn't become a power struggle between that student and you the professor.
Coming late and leaving early are also grouped together with the up to 3 absences they can accumulate and not have to take the final. In practice, I sometimes let it accumulate to 5 and then they have even less room to argue.
Hang in there, Bill!
Kelly Woestman Pittsburg State University
--
Kelly in Kansas
kwoestma@pittstate.edu
316-235-4316
Author: Omohundro@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:28:53 -0600
Kelly A. Woestman touches on a problem that others may have encountered: Their own colleagues' lack of consideration. I would guess that once every other year or so (two semesters each) I run into another instructor who insists who lecturing into the ten minute period reserved on our campus (in theory) for change of classes. We don't have a big campus, and ten minutes is ample time to reach most parts of it, from anywhere else, and maybe allow a visit to the loo or grap a cup of java. Still, the colleagues who do this seem to be a bit disorganized, or of a certain ideological bent, or just unconscious that the instructor behind them might want to put an outline or certain facts on the board, or whatever. When I complained to a very senior member of my own department some years ago about this behavior (he was English, and now retired, thank goodness), his response was that all faculty had the right to teach right up to the half hour, not stopping at 20 minutes after. The implication is that we should ignore the schedule, to hell with our students, and make everyone late to every class (at least those that start more or less on time.) The inmates really are in charge, and have been for quite awhile.
Michael Chesson, U/Mass-Boston
omohundro@aol.com
Author: Frank Johnson
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:30:25 -0600
Thanks for the superb suggestions on dealing with disruptive behavior(s). Late-comers and early-goers have not proved too problematic in my courses yet. However, I have had several students leave during videos.
I tried the humor approach (it was sort of funny when 10 people thought they slipped out without anyone noticing). The second time I used that to my advantage. Then someone left. I was outraged. I marched up to the VCR and slapped the switch and gave a soap box lecture that surprised even me. The students were flabbergasted. The topic of the day happened to be race relations; I vented about intellectual laziness, victimization and so on. I told the class to leave and think about the issues. I knew where I stood on the topic--did they?
Well, when my pulse returned to normal (about three hours later), I figured I could expect an barrage of phone calls, or worse. On the contrary, attendance was up at the next class meeting and no one left from then on (I helped by reverting to the humor material just for insurance). On the evaluations, one student claimed this particular session was the best class he had as an undergraduate. Never before had a professor shown his/her convictions so openly. I learned an important lesson. Not blowing our cool is helpful, but conveying our involvement/appreciation for issues is imperative. After one has given a talk several times, we must force ourselves to be fresh and engaging--for the students' sakes as much as our own.
BTW, since this experience, I tell the class up front that if anyone leaves I will stop the video and dismiss class. Moreover, they will be responsible for all material contained in that video. Therefore, they will have to seek out a copy (often impossible) or do additional reading on that particular topic to cover the difference. Naturally, I was tested. I stopped the student in the hall and asked what he was doing. He claimed he had a paper due and needed to work on it. I then asked him what he thought my class was all about. I informed him of the consequences (there were nearly two hundred people riding on his decision) and encouraged him to return to his seat. He did. I nearly collapsed from the stress of the moment, but the class knew my reasonable expectations were for real.
Frank E. Johnson
Michigan State Univ.
Author: Robert F. Pace
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:59:14 -0600
This discussion thread came at the perfect time for me. Last week, I "lost my cool" for exactly the same reason that Bill described. I have been feeling awkward and guilty ever since.
Over the years of teaching, I have come to believe that lectures should be well-organized, self-contained units (regardless of how much material I get through in a given period). Therefore, I always begin with an introduction and end with a summary/conclusion that sets up the next lecture. Most students particularly enjoy the conclusion. On the other hand, some students have consistently assumed that when I shift into "conclusion mode" that it is o.k. for them to start packing up their books. The rustling and commotion essentially ruin the "concluding remarks" for the students who want to hear them.
Over the past couple of years, this rustling, etc., has no longer been a problem because I explain to the students on the first day of class that I lecture in this format and that if they pay close attention, they will find the threads of most essay questions that could appear on the exam if they pay attention to my concluding remarks. This is true because my concluding remarks are broad enough that I generally will cover most connections and analytical positions regarding the material. But, this is not all--also on the first day, I explain to the class that time is important and we should all respect each others' time. I say that I expect them in class on time, and that I will never keep them over the time period. I tell them that if I do inadvertantly go past the class period, I will let them out early the next class. Finally, I tell them that one of my largest pet peeves is for students to pack up their books before the class is over. I explain that this process is rude to me and to others in the class. But I also appeal to their practicality. On that first day, I ask them to pack up their books and zip up their bags, etc. I time them in this activity, and usually everyone is packed in fiften to twenty seconds. I then ask them if it is worth being rude to me and and disruptive to the class to save fifteen seconds. Most see that it is not, so I have few interruptions before the end of class.
Then...came last week. I was starting a summary of the issues facing the US at the end of world war I, and one student started packing up his bags. This started a stampede of several students packing up, making me lose my train of thought. I stared them down for a few seconds, but to no avail. I finally stopped the lecture and announced to the class that several students were being rude and had destroyed my train of thought. I said that it would take me a couple of minutes to regain this thought and that I expected complete silence for two minutes, I said that if any one made a noise, they could leave and not come back (a threat I don't think I could have enforced). I'm not sure if anyone was even breathing (it was almost eerie how quiet it was). I then started again after two minutes and did not stop until exactly two minutes after the time to go. Upon reflection, I overreacted, but I think I was particularly upset because I do make such a big deal about this particular issue at the beginning of the semester. I guess that some students need constant reminders. Anyway, the next time I met with that class, I let them out about five minutes early because I still wanted to live up to my end of the bargain. A few students came up to me during that five minutes and said how much they appreciated me handling the rude students the way that I did and that some professors would have let it continue and disrupt learning. So, I don't know what the answer is, but I'll keep plugging away. Again, this discussion came at the perfect time.
+ + + Robert F. Pace Internet Address: + + Assistant Professor of History rpace@longwood.lwc.edu + + Department of History and Political Science + + Longwood College Phone: + + 201 High Street (804) 395-2220 + + Farmville, VA 23909 + + +
Author: Kelly A. Woestman
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:43:27 -0600
Robert Pace pointed out another VERY important thing we need to keep in mind - the students that aren't disruptive do resent it when we don't keep our classroom "under control" so that they can get their money's worth.
Kelly Woestman, Pittsburg (KS) State
--
Kelly in Kansas
kwoestma@pittstate.edu
316-235-4316
Author: Rosemary Grant
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:58:26 -0600
I'm responding to Michael's post about the rudeness of colleagues. This is a topic close to my heart because it was what I researched and wrote about in the dissertation. There is a nation-wide crisis in the lack of civility. It was so bad in my university that the people on one floor would not even talk to the people on the other.
In my school teachers have tried to shout down each other on several occasions. In ml study I found that some practice prudence while others don't seem to care. Some teachers who are kind and gentle with students hate their colleagues. If you resent your colleagues, then you will likely act impulsively and will take a critical approach with them. Before you know it resentment leads to cynicism and disgust. I was surprised to find so much disdain among civilized people. Oftentimes teachers have trouble seeing someone else's perspective and don't care what other people think.
It takes work and endurance to make collegiality work.
Respectfully,
Rosemary Bradford Grant
Monett High School, history & humanities instructor 1-417-235-5445 UMKC adjunct, fax 417-235-7884
Monett, MO 65708
Author: Omohundro@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:36:39 -0600
I'd be interested in hearing more about Rosemary Grant's research findings. For example, does anyone find that scientists and mathematicians tend to be more civil (at least with outsiders) than social scientists and humanists? It's certainly been my experience (and my spouse's in dealing with profs at MIT) that your so-called hard scientists and math professors tend to be easier to deal with. The reason often advanced for this stereotype, true or not, is that they're dealing with hard data (unless they're at the cutting edge of some black hole) while historians and others are working with subjective kinds of evidence, a process that makes us cranky.
Michael Chesson, U/Mass-Boston
omohundro@aol.com
Author: tkaminsk@uwspmail.uwsp.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:31:03 -0600
The vast majority of my students are polite and attentive, but in order to prevent problems from occuring I do list behavioral expectations on the syllabus and go over them the first day of class. Since I usually do not require attendance in my surveys I tell the students that if they are having a bad day, are too tired, are too in love, etc. that they just shouldn't come. I emphasize that disruptive behavior is disrespectful to their fellow students. I also tell them that I don't particularly mind if they sleep as long as they don't snore, and that usually gets a chuckle out of them. Mostly I ignore behavior that doesn't bother the other students. If they come to class and don't open their notebook, it is not my problem. It is ultimately reflected in their grade. And sometimes I do use exams to remind students of their behavior. For example, if a student who tends to fall asleep in class gets a C on an exam, I usually write a little note that consciousness during class might help to improve the grade. This kind of prodding often gets results.
If anyone else saw "Frasier" last night, you know that rudeness is rather common. His solution was to give someone a lesson in etiquette, by forcibly removing the offender from the situation.
Theresa Kaminski
Dept. of History
University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Author: Kirk Jeffrey
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:31:25 -0600
There is an article about civility in the academy that appears in the Chronicle of Higher Education, the last issue but one.
Kirk Jeffrey
Carleton College
Author: H-Survey Co-Editor Bill Cecil-Fronsman Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:00:22 -0600
#1 From rluker@netcom.comWed Mar 13 10:55:50 1996
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:42:17 -0800 (PST)
While several of these posts are amusing, I doubt that escalating the level of incivility is any answer to the problem of student conduct in the classroom. Insofar as political correctness intrudes on consideration of significant academic questions, it is undoubtedly a problem. But I can't imagine a situation in which it is appropriate to refer to a female student as a "twinkie" in front of other students.
Ralph E. Luker
rluker@netcom.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:10:47 -0600
Bill hit a resonant note in the rude behavior anecdote
in his own survey class. The posts to H-Survey have
been instructive and heartening. "I am not alone" has
been echoing in my head as I read the many
responses to the thread on classroom deportment.
The spectrum of reaction to disruptive behavior has
ranged from "What problem?" to many anecdotal
recommendations in the "I tried this and it seemed to
work." line of thought. When classes resume next
week after spring break, I plan to share many of the
stories with my classes. I can think of no better way to
reestablish a tone of civility for the second half of the
term. A journey of great distance (to a more civil
classroom) begins with the first step. Thank you,
H-Survey.
-Neil Sapper
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 10:36:58 -0600
Thanks to H-Survey folks for all the helpful comments about handling rustling backpacks and restless students during the last two to five minutes of scheduled class sessions. At my campus, Wisconsin-Eau Claire, the student paper once ran a story about the cost in dollars of rudeness. The calculation went like this:
number of minutes lost to rudeness X class periods
-------------------------------------------------------------------
total number of class minutes
Plugging in some real-life numbers, that means in my U.S. survey class:
2 minutes X 32 class periods = 64
--------------------------------- = .027 semesters lost
32 classes X 75 minutes = 2350
My campus charges $101 a credit, so converting the formula into dollars, each student in my three-credit survey loses about $8.18 to rudeness. That may not sound like much, but when you extend this deadweight loss (in economist terms) to a class of 50, 100, or 300, then you start talking about real money. Of course, the cost is greater at a private school.
By the way, I share these calculations with students a few weeks into the semester after the effects of my first-day admonition start to wear off.
Jim Oberly, H-Rural Co-Moderator
Dept. of History
Univ. of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
Eau Claire, WI 54701
Tel: 715-836-5501
FAX: 715-836-2380
E-Mail: JOBERLY@UWEC.EDU or H-RURAL@MSU.EDU
WWW: http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/History/clio4.html
Author: H-Survey Co-Editor Bill Cecil-Fronsman Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:01:26 -0600
From GUS@cas.unt.eduTue Mar 12 08:39:36 1996 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:51:01 CST6CDT
I have tried all of the remedies listed and all of them work to one degree or another but there are other remedies particularly with scholarship athletes that work. Of these far and away the easiest is to call the offending student down after class and tell him simply and directly and these are generally the words I use, "You got off easy today. Next time this happens I will finish the lecture and go directly to the phone where I will call either the head coach or your position coach and we will have a full and frank discussion on your chances of passing this course. I suspect your coach will not be pleased. Therefore make a choice, either shape up in here or you can count on running your ass up and down the stadium steps for the next couple of weeks. It matters not to me." The point here being that coaches and/or the academic coordinators in athletics want to keep their athletes eligible and they will generally back you up in ways which we can't approximate.
For the other situations I have long prided myself on being able to be a bigger wise-ass than any kid student therefore I let my ingenuity run amok. For example when the rustling and the gathering of books starts I let it continue until a goodly number of folk have got their stuff together. I then look innocently at them and say something to the effect that what I am about to say is probably the most important thing I have talked about all lecture. I then pause while they get their notebooks and pens out and then with a smile say "Have a nice day", close my notebook and leave. They usually get the point.
My favorite, however, was the response of one of my colleagues a couple of years ago when the prevailing behavior pattern here was for students to walk out in the middle of a class. He was lecturing when a young lady in the middle of the room stood up, turned her back to him, gathered up her books, sauntered down the row to the aisle, and left, slamming the door behind her. In his words something snapped in him and he totally lost his cool. He delivered an impromptu a cappella lecture on rudeness in the classroom culminating with a point of the finger at the guy sitting next to the departed student and telling him "And you, you tell that twinkie if she ever does that in my class again she's history." The guy, shrinking back in his seat, stammered out the words "She's not my twinkie". My colleague went on to say that his class was so intimidated by his lecture that when he gave them a break later in the lecture no one got up until he told them it was okay to get up then.
For rustling, talking, etc which sometimes happens during the class, not at the end, and incidentally I seldom teach a survey with less then 135, I have yet another tried and true solution. I will look out at the class bigeyed and innocent and say something like "Be quiet you guys. Show a little respect. Not to me, I turn my hearing aids down before I come in the room, but to your classmates. After all some of them work long hours and they are trying to sleep." they have a chuckle and usually quiet down immediately.
On a more serious note, however, my colleagues and I have found that addressing a student in class, even though his/her behavior is bothering other students generally unites the class behind the student and against the instructor. Our preferred solution is to point at the offender and say something like "Please see me after class". That way everybody knows what is coming isn't going to be fun but the student has not been publicly humiliated and yet you have made it clear that certain types of behavior are not going to be tolerated.
THE MATERIAL THAT FOLLOWS MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO ADULTS.
THE KIDS HAVE HEARD IT ALL.
G. Seligmann
YOU WILL HAVE TO PAGE DOWN TO READ IT.
And yet two more examples of how to deal with the truly obnoxious. One year on the first day of class I had a student show up to class late with a t-shirt advertising a band called "The Dead Kennedy's" and the slogan "Too drunk to fuck" on it. He, of course, took a seat as far from the door as possible and made sure I and all of his classmates saw his slogan. I waited until he set down and casually remarked "Well son, I would say you have a real alcohol problem." I never saw the shirt again.
The other concerned a very bright and totally unruly student in a special program we have here which allows very bright high school students, 1200 or better SATs as Sophomores, to get two years of college credit in our regular courses while simultaneously earning their high school degrees. These kids often have utter contempt for history having known nothing but coaches and folk of less competence and are not mature to know that those of us here might be different. On the first day of class this kid was standing up in class playing the fool and generally disrupting the class in every way he could think of and he was no dummy. I let it go on for about three minutes and said conversationally to him "You there ace I don't know your name yet but if you don't sit down and shut the fuck up I am going to find it out very quickly. And if I find it out under these circumstances I can assure you that your stay in this class is going to be a truly Hobbesian experience." I then turned to the class and asked if anyone understood my reference. A girl on the front row who was in the same program and grinning from ear to ear said it was a reference to the philosopher Thomas Hobbes and it probably referred to his statement that in a state of nature life would be brutish, nasty, and short. Obnoxious kid set down and never acted up again in class and got an "A". Girl on front row did too.
Moral of all of this, there ain't nothing wrong with losing your cool provided you remain in control.
Gus Seligmann
From heronj@netcom.comTue Mar 12 08:40:07 1996 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:13:32 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, H-Survey Co-Editor Bill Cecil-Fronsman wrote:
I should have know better -- but...
and then goes on to describe a student who folded his tent five minutes before the class ended.
Gee, Bill,
You'll get lots of good suggestions with this one. But what *are* are you
doing teaching Aaron Burr in March? ;-)
[That's easy -- this is a US-1 class that I'm teaching out of
sequence. BCF]
How about suddenly giving students a reason to have their notebooks out. Like, stopping the lecture and asking for a journal type response to the day's lecture. In HS, I'm not too ashamed to make some quasi-humorous comment about quitting before the job is done--even to honors students, but I'm certain that wouldn'd be seen as graceful in higher ed.
John Heron
South San Francisco High
(south of but not part of SF)
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