Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:59:22 -0500 From: "E. Bastea" <bastea@CEC.WUSTL.EDU> Subject: Re: to mati, again
As someone who has grown up in Greece, I am somewhat surprised by the eagerness and often demanding tone of some of these questions regarding Greek customs, beliefs, lore. Anthropologists may be used to this "native" resistance, but then, I am not an anthropologist and my comments may appear naive. Of course we believed in the "mati," still do, even if we don't want to admit it, and I can remember several sayings and actions my grandmother used to keep it away from us. However, this is not the kind of information I would share with a stranger (and I hate to use that term about academic colleagues who are normally supposed to cooperate on issues of scholarship). I wouldn't even share this with others in Greece because they may well call it "nonsense" and begin to doubt where I stand. Maybe horoscopes are next? Other superstitions?
While I understand the eagerness of others to learn more about the Greek culture, or any culture not originally their own, I would like to communicate my own unease about the method of learning about one's culture. Are Greeks, or any other particular group, supposed to open up everything there is to know about their culture and provide it to the first person who is curious? Some of these answers will certainly come, but after some time. Others might be still harder to pinpoint. Some will never be "translated" into this flat, academic discourse. I often wonder if those who are so attracted to "exotic" people would be willing to share all their family traditions, superstitions, etc., with the first person from a minor country who posts a question on the internet. Is everyone willing to live in a fishbowl?
I, myself, don't have an answer, or a method to respond to the questions I raised above. As an educator, I, also, preach greater openness and willingness to learn about other cultures. As one caught between two worlds (like a lot of the people on this list) I felt I had to register my resistance to some of these threads.
Eleni Bastea, School of Architecture
Washington University in St. Louis
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 01:08:45 -0700 From: Alison Cadbury <acadbury@NETCOM.COM> Subject: Curiosity etc.
I should like to respond to E. Bastea's somewhat testy response to the queries concerning the Eye and others I have posted. First, I do not feel that the community I am writing about is "exotic." Different in many ways from suburban American, of course--laudably different, in my view. . Secondly, I do not feel that I am the"first stranger" to ask questions about culture, beliefs, and practices. The place I write about I have been living in as deeply as possible over the course of 25 years. I write about it because I loved it from the moment I set foot in it, loved it just as it was and hurt when it was changed by a massive influx of tourism, when the links between all the aspects of life were weakened.
More than architecture and sea, etc., I loved the people--no capital p. They seemed to me sensible, sensitive, balanced between pragmatic and spiritual. Every aspect of life seemed inextricably linked with every other. I set about learning the depths of every aspect I could identify. That meant taking seriously the Second Coming and the Mati along with ways of doing laundry, making cheese, and marrying, not to mention plants and architecture and and and... I had no intention of creating a cute little village with picturesque peasants--*A Year in Provence style*. To not do that, I've had to WORK at cleaning the windscreen, as it were. It was 25 years ago when I determined that I would write about this cosmos, and it has taken me all these years to find the confidence and the forms in which to do so with adequate respect. I write about nothing that I have not experienced myself, but I also like to place the events and aspects of this particular place in the context of Greek culture in general. I would no more "borrow" an incident or belief from another area or book and pop it into the context of "my" village than I would betray any confidence--and I have received many. What I want is to understand. And not to make mistakes. Here in the US, the only community I have to help me understand is my friends and this academic network. 95% of what I learn stays in the head anyway, but may influence the choices of words, the direction of an essay. If I'm a little overeager it's because I would like to finish this piece of writing before I die. If the MGSA list is irritated by my queries, I will gladly (well, no sadly) take a vow of silence. But most people have been kind.
As to "exotic", there is a difference between exoticizing and idealizing. The Abkhazian-Russian writer Fazil Iskander says,
In my childhood I caught fleeting glimpses of the patriarchal
village life of Abkhazia and fell in love with it forever. Have I
perhaps idealized a vanishing life? Perhaps. A man cannot help
ennobling what he loves. We may not recognize it, but in idealizing
a vanishing way of life we are presenting a bill to the future. We are
saying, "Here is what we are losing; what are you going to give us in
exchange? Let the future think on that, if it is capable of thinking
at all."
David Sutton asked me to forward this to the list as a whole. Bob Ingria
==============================Forward========================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 20:10:08 CDT
From: david evan sutton <sut6@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: yet more re evil eye
Just to add a few more experiences of to mati from my own fieldwork on Kalymnos: The vast majority of Kalymnians admitted to believing in the eye, although actual knowledge of the workings of the eye seemed to go down as one's education level increased. Everyone seemed to agree on a few things though: that people gave the eye unintentionally, not because of jealousy, although certain people could give it more than others, especially if they were "dried up" and lacked saliva. Everyone also agreed that treatment of the eye was sanctioned by the church, that the words one spoke came from the church, and some referred me to Saint Kiprianos. The one time I actually saw someone de-eyed, oil was dropped into a bowl of water, and if the oil "burst" that meant that the person had been "eyed" and the dissipating of the oil was compared to the "bursting of an eye." The woman who did the ritual then rubbed salt water onto the suffering woman's lips saying the words "na fas ton ekthro sou, na min sou faie." This seemed to suggest the "jealousy" theme, but the woman denied it when I asked her. I was also told that the words had to be passed down across sexes, a woman could not teach them to another woman. Finally a number of people told me stories of people asking to have the ritual performed over the telephone. This was thought to be very funny, perhaps suggesting the incongruous mixing of "modern" technology and folk belief. Hope all this is of some interest.
David Sutton
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 10:05:16 -0400
From: Bob Ingria <ingria@BBN.COM>
Subject: to mati, again
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:59:22 -0500 From: "E. Bastea" <bastea@CEC.WUSTL.EDU>
>As someone who has grown up in Greece, I am somewhat surprised by the >eagerness and often demanding tone of some of these questions regarding >Greek customs, beliefs, lore. Anthropologists may be used to this >"native" resistance, but then, I am not an anthropologist and my comments >may appear naive. Of course we believed in the "mati," still do, even if >we don't want to admit it, and I can remember several sayings and actions >my grandmother used to keep it away from us. However, this is not the >kind of information I would share with a stranger (and I hate to use that >term about academic colleagues who are normally supposed to cooperate on >issues of scholarship). I wouldn't even share this with others in Greece >because they may well call it "nonsense" and begin to doubt where I >stand. Maybe horoscopes are next? Other superstitions?
>While I understand the eagerness of others to learn more about the Greek >culture, or any culture not originally their own, I would like to >communicate my own unease about the method of learning about one's >culture. Are Greeks, or any other particular group, supposed to open up >everything there is to know about their culture and provide it to the >first person who is curious? Some of these answers will certainly come, >but after some time.
Good points. I will note that even folk beliefs one grew up with that one doesn't believe may have a strong emotional hold. I am of Italian-American descent and my parents and their co-equals believed in the cornuto (forming the first and little fingers into a pair of "horns" to call down evil on another). I myself have never actively believed in the cornuto. Still, several years ago when I was at a rock show, I was utterly shocked when people in the audience made what seemed to be the cornuto at the band. (The gesture looks the same but is of different origin and signifies approval.) For all my disbelief, I had grown up in a culture where the cornuto was taken quite seriously and where one would never make the cornuto even jokingly at another. So seeing what looked like the same gesture took me aback and made me realize how emotionally powerful the cornuto was to me, even though I didn't believe in it. One doesn't have to believe in the cornuto to know that it is deeply offensive to those who know it and not to be used lightly.
As for anthropological research into folk beliefs, you are quite right that we should probably not expect people to open up to the first person who comes along and is curious. I wonder if the proper technique shouldn't be that of the participant-observer: the investigator should be familiar with one version of the folk belief or practice; ideally, it should be something that he or she has grown up with (whether or not he or she actively believes in it). The investigator can then engage in an exchange of information with the informant; e.g. "This is what we thought and did about to mati where I'm from. What do you do here?" This would involve the informant, would turn the interview from an "interrogation" into a sharing of knowledge, and would convey the interest of the interviewer and his/her openness to the belief.
-30-
Bob Ingria
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:37:13 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: yet more re evil eye
As I have indicated in a personal message to Patricia, there were certain aspects of what she described that were not familiar to me, either in my personal experience nor in my reading of Greek culture. They do not include those aspects cited by Diane above. All of that IS familiar, but the idea that knowledge of exorcist rituals is privileged information is not, nor are some of the other practices/beliefs cited in the original message (no copy of which have I preserved, so I cannot cite any other specifics)
Peter Allen
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:42:52 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: to mati
There is a fairly extensive literature on the Greek evil eye (see the work of the Blums, especially) and although I have not read it for many years, I cannot recall any example therein of some things described by Patricia. As I indicated in a personal communication to her, it would be a good idea to peruse the literature for comparative examples and also to return to where she heard this account and look for confirmation from others. I certainly believe that it is possible that the range of beliefs/rituals associated with the evil eye in Greece is broad enough to encompass what Patricia reported, but in looking for an explanation as to why someone had labeled it all "nonsense", I suggested that the labeller might be referring to the specifics of Patricia's account rather than to the whole idea of the evil eye itself. I may be wrong there, but I thought it was an interpretation that had not been suggested and the unfamiliarity of some of Patricia's informant's report led me to make that suggestion.
Peter Allen
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 08:44:52 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: to mati
As I have tried to indicate in earlier messages, I was perhaps too inclusive in saying that there was "nothing" in Patricia's informant's account that was familiar to me. Of course, the idea of the evil eye being associated with compliments, spitting to counteract it, etc. are known to me, but other practices not.
Peter Allen
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:15:47 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: to mati, again
Dear Bob,
Given your sensitivity to the cornuto, I suggest that you avoid attending any athletic functions at the University of Texas, where the "Hook 'em horns" cheer involves tens of thousands of people waving the "cornuto" throughout the event!
Peter Allen
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:12:09 -0400 From: George Baloglou <baloglou@OSWEGO.OSWEGO.EDU> Subject: Just ... Anthropology!
I followed with interest the recent discussion(s) on the way(s) "Western" anthropologists look at Greece and the uneasiness this might cause to (both "observed" and "observing"!) Greeks; I did have my own reservations at some point (and still do, to some extent) and have been on the other side, too (when a native Alaskan pointed out to me that "I ask too many questions", for example). Let us not forget, by the way, that *all* Greeks who go abroad to work or study are ardent anthropologists, driven by a version of the survival instinct far more primitive than "publish or perish" :-)
To me, the problem does not lie with anthropologists and their questions, which, in this list at least, I never found "offending" or "intrusive"; what I see as a problem is that, in a list focused on Modern Greek studies--and not specifically to anthropological such--we rarely discuss Greek literature. Therefore, the impression projected by our list is that Greek culture lies there simply to be "observed", with almost no ability to "observe"; I hope most of us here disagree with such a conclusion, and bemoan the low esteem that contemporary and modern Greek literature appears to have in the U.S. nowadays.
Any comments or suggestions?
George Baloglou--telneting from Aristotle University "H Pwmavia ki' av enepacev av8ei kai fepei ki' allo" "Even though it faded, Hellenism blooms and branches out again"
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 23:33:21 -0700 From: Alison Cadbury <acadbury@NETCOM.COM> Subject: to mati
More on the subject of the Eye:
It seems to me we have agreement on several issues:
excessive admiration and (perhaps) envy.
orally--sometimes from mother to daughter, sometimes from grandmother to granddaughter--in one instance from man to woman. It is not clear whether the ability to ksematiazei is innate or acquired, or whether the "student" needs to have special qualities.
person?) to whom they are being transmitted for the purpose of ksematiasma. Making them known for other purposes is dangerous.
traditionally practiced by women, it has come into contempt in contemporary Euro-centric or Euro-mimetic society.
Other things I have noticed:
young women most likely to give it (reasonable: babies and young animals are "adorable," and young women most likely to adore them).
A wonder and some observations: I wonder whether "the Church" (that is, any Orthodox authority) has expressed any opinion about the Eye.
The Eye seems to me to be one of those inspired (but to whom?) ways in which a society seeks to preserve itself, another example of which is the Navajo clan system. But while the clan system is protecting the genetic health of the People, the Eye concept is protecting the moral and inevitably social health.
Clearly it is connected to the concepts and practices of hubris and nemesis, even karma. What is different is that there are preventives and cures that people can use (but Tracy Lord points outs to me that we don't know that there weren't such folk practices in classical Greece, since we only have intellectual evidence).
Two evils seem to be addressed--adoration of another person and envy of another person or his/her spouse, maidservant, ass, k.t.l. not to mention land. Surely the latter is the root of all discord in everyday society--the source of theft, false witness, adultery, and so forth. The former is on a different plane--but addresses the danger of believing that one is exempt from or not subject to natural law; this latter could be either declaring oneself a god (Caesars), thinking that because one is idolized that one can "get away with murder," or--a village example--mourning a death too long, refusing to let Nature take its course. The simple acts of spitting, of well-wishing on every occasion on which envy might arise are reminders that our admiration can cause a person to have a unbalanced view of him/herself (hubris), our envy can harm ourselves as well and ripple outward into social discord, even war. The rituals of blessing and ksematiasma are simple also, and deal, as the I Ching would say, with "things in their beginnings."
I cannot agree that such a practical, easily learned system of avoiding and turning away evil is superstition.
Remember when all the Buddhists tried to OOOMMM all over the world at the same time to bring it back into harmony? Maybe the Hellenes and Philhellenes should organize a worldwide ksematiasma to stop the rampant covetousness and egomania now flourishing in every corner of the world. I can envision a ring of a thousand yia-yias with their glasses of water chanting around the Capitol....
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 00:47:07 -0500 From: "E. Bastea" <bastea@CEC.WUSTL.EDU> Subject: Re: more on the mati
I would like to add my thoughts to the responses to my earlier posting on the mati and other comments on this thread. I found that Bob Ingria's comments about the cornuto expressed exactly what I was trying to describe. Just as he realized "how emotionally powerful the cornuto was" to him, even though he didn't believe it, and "how deeply offensive to those who know it" it is to see it being used lightly, I also reacted, and react to the flattening out, trivialization, or at least commodification of many of those beliefs either by insiders or by outsiders.
I was also moved by Alison Cadbury's long response supporting and justifying what is clearly a life's work that needs to reach the next step and, of course, one would like to help a fellow colleague as that is possible. Specifically about the mati, however, I would like to respond to some of her comments: "Stranger" is obviously a touchy word, coming from a Greek. When I wrote that I would not discuss what we did at home about the mati with a stranger, I actually had in mind _anybody_, Greek or foreigner, whom I did not know well, did not consider really part of my family. Even if someone has spent 25 or 105 years working on the Greek people. In summarizing her findings about the mati, she notes: "The rituals of blessing and ksematiasma are simple .... I cannot agree that such a practical, easily learned system of avoiding and turning away evil is superstition." Well, to me at least, there is nothing simple about averting the evil eye. Were it only so simple as to pronounce a few words and spit behind yourself, then it wouldn't be an issue. Would it? And here is my point about trivializing it and flattening the whole process out. Ksematiasma is not like taking an aspirin when you have a headache. You simply don't know when, and if, it will work. But I said I wasn't going to talk about what we do....
My broader issue, however, which both Ingria and George Baloglou addressed, had to do with the anthropologist's position as an observer only, or as a participant-observer. Is every single anthropologist, albeit with a love for the culture he/she is studying and many years invested in this work, willing to reveal personal, maybe taboo, or religious beliefs and practices to others? Why do we assume that scholarly and/or personal interest gives us the right to even ask these questions? As I asked before, is everyone willing to live in a fishbowl, their personal lives open to inspection? To me, and I know that others agree on that, this has to be a reciprocal relationship that presupposes a respect for silence, as well.