The following discussion was cross-posted on H-SAE beginning in May 1995 from MGSA-L (the Modern Greek Studies Association list). It elicited some responses on H-SAE, which are also in this subdirectory. The thread has been posted here with the permission of Roland Moore, listowner of MGSA-L, and with that of the participants who could still be reached by e-mail. It is interesting for the information it contains, and for the exchanges between anthropologists/folklorists and Greeks with feelings and opinions about the evil eye and its study.
Tony Galt, Editor H-SAE
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 11:11:39 -0700 From: Alison Cadbury <acadbury@NETCOM.COM> Subject: To Mati
For an essay, I would be interested in any opinions or information about To Mati. A friend who is an architect and from a well-known academic family once told me that although she was not religious, she did believe in the Eye. Where does it come from? What does it mean? Is it like Nemesis? What causes a person to be matiasmenos? What are some cures for it? Are habits of speech such as "Me yeia" ways of preventing the Eye? Are there others? Does anyone know the words (maybe there are different versions) said over the glass of water into which oil is dropped na ksematiazei kapion?
Bibliography is always welcome but personal experience is preferable. Alison C.
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 11:48:14 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: To Mati
Hi Alison,
There is a pretty big bibliograpy on the evil eye (Mahoney's 197something book comes to mind and there are lots of dissertations and a key articler by Rubel (?) in the AA in the early 1960s late 1950s on Latin America, which has roots in Europe). There is also a scene in the film, KYPSELI, in which a child is exorcised and you can hear the incantation (which includes an invocation of the Virgin, etc.). In my village they often used an article of the afflicted's clothing, alternately knotting and unknotting it and chanting something religious. I also saw this on the mainland village opposite Poros when I was teaching at the Aegean Institute in 1975.
Peter Allen
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 10:53:17 -0700
From: Schneider-Zioga<pschneid@SCF.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: To Mati
Dear Alison,
I am a non-Greek-American woman married to a Greek (who is from Thesali). When I had my first child, the mother of a close friend of my husband's told me she would teach me how to take away the evil eye. She wrote down a spiritual poem that the person who takes away the evil eye is supposed to say to oneself (three times) during a ritual involving a shallow bowl of water and oil. She told me that one wasn't to say the words out loud to any one. (However, she did explain to me out loud what a word I wasn't familiar with meant). The words I know call on Jesus, not the Virgin Mary. She told me she wanted to teach them to me since I was now a mother and she thought if you taught them to someone who was not a mother, that it might told me she wanted to teach them to me since I was now a mother and she thought if you taught them to someone who was not a mother, that it might not "take". In other words, even if someone found out the ritual including the words, but they weren't rightfully supposed to know the ritual, it just wouldn't work. She told me you don't need to use oil and water. There is a man in my husband's home town who yawns in a special way to find out if someone has the evil eye and then he takes it away solely through prayer (making the sign of the cross many times).
I was told that a person becomes matiasmenos through words- especially compliments. If you are going to give a compliment to someone you should spit first (it's more like you make a spitting-like sound) in order to avert the evil eye. If words (like compliments) bring too much attention to the receiver of the compliment, I was told that this might attract the evil eye (even contrary to the intention of the giver of the compliment).
So, these were my experiences as a foreigner. I don't know if Greeks would agree with what I was told but I would be curious to find out.
Patricia Schneider-Zioga
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 07:50:40 +0300 From: Mihail Delikouras <delikour@CC.HELSINKI.FI> Subject: Re: To Mati
Just don't pay attention to this nonsense. It is exactly that: nonsense.
Mihail Delikouras (U of Helsinki/Economics) Tuulimyllyntie 6D37, 00920 Helsinki,Finland.Ph/Fax: 358-0-3493546, mihail.delikouras@helsinki.fi
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 22:27:31 -0700 From: Kay Lukens <klukens@HALCYON.COM> Subject: Re: To Mati
>> So, these were my experiences as a foreigner. I don't know if Greeks >> would agree with what I was told but I would be curious to find out.
You'll find more on this in:
Author: Blum, Richard H.
Title: The dangerous hour; the lore of crisis and mystery in rural
Greece [by] Richard and Eva Blum. With fieldwork assistance by
Anna Amera and Sophie Kallifatidou. With a foreword by H. R. H.
Prince Peter of Greece.
Pub. Info.: London, Chatto & Windus, 1970.
Kay Lukens
klukens@halcyon.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 23:52:35 -0700 From: Schneider-Zioga <pschneid@SCF.USC.EDU> Subject: Re: To Mati
On Thu, 25 May 1995, Mihail Delikouras wrote in reference to a discussion of "to mati":
> Just don't pay attention to this nonsense. It is exactly that: nonsense.
I don't want to be terribly controversial, but after thinking this over for I while, I decided to express my opinion anyway.
It is interesting to me that Mihail experiences a discussion of the evil eye as nonsense. (Although admittedly it isn't clear to me whether by 'nonsense' he is refering to the concept of the evil eye, or a discussion of it or what.)
I find this especially interesting since in the context of evil eye lore, women (, who seem to almost exclusively be the ones in charge of removing the evil eye,) are at least symbolically empowered through words to heal and protect- such events seem to affirm the ancient traditional (at least from a European perspective) role of women as healers. This doesn't seem at all nonsensical to me that women are in charge of protection and healing.
It also doesn't seem nonsensical to me that a culture has a culturally specific response to a compliment- For instance, in white middle class American culture, a compliment is often responded to with a "thank you." In other social groups, other responses are preferred/appropriate.
Moreover, it is extremely interesting to me that in the context of evil eye lore, we see women using words in a very powerful way in the sense that speech in this context is so powerful as to be able to literally do something (heal or hurt) by virtue of the words being spoken. In this kind of case, we can say that essentially "the speech itself is the activity it reports." The use of words in this way has been referred to by philosophers and linguists as "performative utterances" (see e.g. Austin (1962) "How to do things With Words" Harvard UP) Typical examples of performative utterances are baptisms "I baptise you in the name of the father...", marriages "I now pronounce you man and wife..." arrests "I arrest you in the name of the law", christenings: "I christen this ship the "betty Lou"... i.e., the above mentioned events cannot be said to have happened without the accompanying words--the speech is the activity. Notice that in (European/Eurocentric societies at least) the socially important performative utterances are typically consigned to men. Men are the ones who typically are "in charge" of doing things with words socially. Women's performative utterances seem to occupy more the periphery of society. They are viewed as nonsensical. But, come on, isn't it a tiny bit nonsensical when you think about it that a man (e.g. a priest) can unite two human beings for life *through his words* (marriage pronouncement of a couple as man and wife), or a man can purify someone's soul (of original sin) so that that soul can dwell for eternity with God *by virtue of his words* (baptism). Or a man can render social censure of someone *through his words* (e.g., "I sentence you to death). I just can't help but see this negative kind of attitude toward women's performative utterances as extremely sexist. Why is it nonsense that women can take away someone's perceived pain *by virtue of their words*?
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 16:25:46 -0500 From: BRUMFIELD-A <E7H4BRU@TOE.TOWSON.EDU> Subject: to mati
In response to Schneider Zioga on the evil eye I must admit that the crochety admonition to us all to forget the evil eye as 'nonsense' seemed a bit out of place in a spot devoted to discussion of the subject of modern Greek studies and presumably this includes topics of interest to folklorists and anthropologists. But then I remembered having noticed that a number of subscribers are scientists and technologists. Perhaps it was a devotee of a materialistic worldview, who, fearing that we are all about to start practicing some wicked non-Christian mumbo-jumbo, is trying to warn us off adopting magical practices. Or perhaps he merely wants to exclude such subjects from discussion. S-Z's musings on the female verbal power represented by these rites relates nicely to recent discussions of woman's silence.
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 17:58:11 -0700 From: Alison Cadbury <acadbury@NETCOM.COM> Subject: women and healing
I thank everyone who responded to my request for opinions on "to Mati." The answers were very suggestive.
This leads me to inquire about the practices of the Mami and other women healers in rural Greek tradition. What are the duties of a mami, besides maintaining the health of the prospective mother and birthing the baby? I remember some special obligations regarding clothes for the newborn and practices during the 40 (?) days before "churching." Since the training and certification of mami's has lately become regulated and follows more closely Amer/European RN training, I am worried that if my mami friend is no longer with us, that I will not get any straight answers. However, I find if I have some knowledge of "other parts," most village people will hasten to correct me in terms of local practice or credit me with "knowing all the secrets" and opening up.
Alison.
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:43:31 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU> Subject: Re: to mati
My impression was that the comment that all was "nonsense" applied only to the particular material which had been described. I did not recognize anything in that description of evil eye behavioor that I had ever encountered in Greece or elsewhere and thus I was inclined to agree with the poster who muttered "nonsense". However, I agree with the others that the study of the evil eye (so-called) is a legitimate enterprise and one that has been relatively neglected in recent years, to the detriment of our greater understanding of Greek and other cultures.
Peter Allen
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 08:38:43 +1200 From: Diane Bennett <Diane.Bennett@VUW.AC.NZ> Subject: yet more re evil eye
I just saw Peter Allen's note that he had not recognized anything in the particular description that was labeled nonsense as beliefs or practices he had encountered in Greece. I may by now have mistaken which description was labeled nonsense, but if it's the one from Patricia Schneider-Zioga, I'd like to say that many of the points fit quite well with the basic explanations and practices I encountered on the Pelion peninsula, and the other things were in keeping with the sort of individualistic elaborations on the theme which I saw.
The basic belief that compliments may unwittingly bring on complaints associated with To Mati and the precaution of spitting first were commonly accepted among those who accepted To Mati as a force. Ritual involving water and oil, crosses and recitations, and the mention of 3 times were also part of the standard lore. (I say lore not to be derogatory, but because I heard of these as rememdies far more than I ever saw them practiced.) I also encountered beliefs about both unintentional causation through compliment and specific people with powers associated with evil eye (to cause harm and to cure).
In addition to finding the basic points Patricia mentioned familiar, I also heard individual elaborations, anecdotes, and beliefs about why and how that were not widely shared. And I also encountered people who labeled the beliefs and practices of their fellow villagers nonsense.
I find the whole range--beliefs, disbeliefs, ideas about why the efficacy is falling, who believes, changes in patterns of belief, etc--a fascinating field of study. A few years back Charles Stewart wrote about trends in belief in such spiritual things, away, then back. I can't remember if he specifically refered to To Mati, but it would make an interesting analysis.
Diane Bennett
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 18:46:49 -0400
From: Bob Ingria <ingria@BBN.COM>
Subject: to mati
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:43:31 -0400 From: Peter Allen <PALLEN@GROG.RIC.EDU>
> My impression was that the comment that all was "nonsense" applied only > to the particular material which had been described. I did not recognize > anything in that description of evil eye behavioor that I had ever en- > countered in Greece or elsewhere and thus I was inclined to agree with > the poster who muttered "nonsense".
I find this an extraordinary statement. This amounts to saying that one can know, a priori, what the range of possible variations of a folk belief are so that one can dismiss any version that does not fit this preconception as ``nonsense''. I am reminded of Harlan Ellison's anecdote about reading one of his short stories that was based on the Prometheus myth and then being told by a member of his audience that he had gotten it ``wrong'' because it did not correspond exactly to any existing version. It is the essence of myths and folk beliefs and practices that they change to suit the conditions of their practitioners. Even if the version of mati lore presented were otherwise unattested (and Diane Bennett's comments show that it is, in fact, not) that would not delegitimize it. There is no Academy of Greek Folk Practices that sits in judgement on various practices and blesses some and outlaws other, and, given the nature of folk practices there could not in principle be such an institution that had any real authority. To refer to some variant of a folk belief/practice as ``nonsense'' reflects a monumental lack of understanding of what a folk practice is.
Bob Ingria
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 18:57:37 -0500 From: BRUMFIELD-A <E7H4BRU@TOE.TOWSON.EDU> Subject: to mati
I too am puzzled that Peter Allen says he has never heard of these practices connected to the evil eye: spitting to counteract a compliment, various rites to counteract the various ills brought on by the evil eye. I have heard of and seen such things among quite sophisticated people in Athens and Crete. The book Diane bennett is referring to might be Chas Stewart's *Demons and the Devil* (1991) which has quite a bit about the evil eye and very interestingly written too I think.
As to whether its nonsense, its not hard to have a secret belief in the power of others to wish evil. Rather natural. As to whether hair color has anything to do with causing it, maybe thats why everyone was spitting all over the place when I blondly enthused over various chubby Greek babies.
Allaire
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 20:22:55 -0400 From: Papaleonardos <cpapaleo@MAGNUS. ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> Subject: Gia to mati... (fwd)
I was asked to fwd this message to the list. - Takis
--------Forwarded message: -----------------------------------------------
From: Mihail Delikouras <delikour@cc.helsinki.fi>
X-Sender: delikour@kruuna
Subject: Gia to mati...
Dear friends
I asked for this message to be forwarded to you for I have unsubscribed from the list. (I think I will subscribe again!)
I have to thank the two fellows that tried to interpret what I have said about evil eye as "nonsense" and to blame myself for not being clear enough. As nonsense, I didn't mean the need for discussion about the subject, the opinions of others, or the dedicated efforts of a number of scientists to analyze the evil eye phenomenon from a theological, psycological, sociological, antropological, literary, point of view.
Nonsense, was merely my personal position about the particular superstition. I have made hundrends of small revolutions to dissassociate myself from religious and non-religions superstitions like this as well other traditional or not beliefs found in greek society.
I have come to wonder why women in orthodox church can not become priests or enter the "iero" (altar?) especially when they are "dirty". In Finland I have seen many weddings and baptisms performed by women Lutheran priests. Finland also had a woman as defence minister. (not that all that makes things a whole better for the true feminist cause...)
Anyway, my Nordic wife believes in evil eye but suffers from it only in Greece, she says. And we do not allow our kids (3) to grow at least with this particular superstition, that means we do not give them the blue eyes to wear neither do we spit at them etc.
Thanks for the attention. (Pls, forward your comments to me, also) Have a good summer all.
END OF MGSA-L EVIL EYE THREAD PART I Edited Nov. 13, 1995