Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

From:Lois Shawver

Mary Salm's research into the prevalence of lesbianism in WWII is suspect for reasons she reveals when she tells this list:

I, and others who served in the WAC in WW II, do not like being tarred with the lesbian brush.

That is not the posture of an objective researcher. Having something to prove like this, compromises the quality of any research, and so, however much we care about Mary Salm's inner pain, we cannot trust her conclusions.

In my book (referenced below) I have reviewed what I believe to be trustworthy studies to reach an estimate of the proportion of gays and lesbians in the military. I did not do this research myself, but I studied the reports carefully and I talked with many of the researchers on these projects.

Using their reported data, I think the most reasonable estimate is that at least 12 to 18 percent of women in the military would qualify as lesbian if they were honest about it. Many more would qualify, however, under the broad military definition because eople who are basically straight can qualify as lesbian under Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

There are many cases I report in my book. There is the tragic love story of two women. One had never had homosexual feelings before, but her brief lesbian relationship ended in her discharge and her lover's court martial and imprisonment for very minimal homosexual actions. Neither expected to develop romantic feelings for a woman, and they had no one to turn to but each other to talk about it.

And there are cases to of straight people like Mary Selm, who feel straight but spend a lifetime trying to escape the stigma of homosexuality or lesbian. Some of these straight people have been discharged. Some fight it and are reinstated at their own expense. This is not a psychologically healthy situation.

As you can see, I am an advocate for dropping the ban against gays. I serve as an expert witness in many American court cases, and I was a key expert who argued for dropping the ban in Canada when the Canadian ban was dropped.

I believe the ban is at least as destructive for straights as it is for gays. Mary Salm is an example of how the ban creates a stigma that injures the self-confidence of straights as well as gays: She feels stigmatized even though she feels straight, even though she was in the military more than fifty years ago. She feels stigmatized because she thinks people believe that she is a lesbian, or that they might presume that she is a lesbian.

This psychologically destructive stigma is shared by straights and gays alike. Think what it does to the United States as a culture. Many men feel this stigma. Fear of looking homosexual is a reason, at times, for men to be macho by raping women. (I have worked with such men as a prison therapist.) The need to prove heterosexuality distorts otherwise healthy heterosexual relations, especially in America. It damages all of our lives and we pass this psychological baggage to our children, worrying if our son's gentleness means he is gay, or if our daughter's tree-climbing means she is a lesbian.

I believe we need to reduce the power of the terrible stigma of homosexuality, but we can only do so if we can eliminate government enforced bans and similar discriminations against lesbians and gays. Perhaps your situation is such that you cannot speak out against the ban, but read about the problems this ban creates and think of ways you can support yourself against its damage. The discharge investigation can be a surprise, and you do not need to be gay to be surprised by it.

Remember, removing the ban will not destroy straight sexuality. "If it is hard to stamp out homosexuality, then it will be equally hard to stamp out heterosexual desire (p. 153)." And if you feel homosexual feelings, you need to undertand how common this is and what it means. Don't overreact with fear and depression. Do not let the stigma and the propaganda undermine your mental health.

And do not be afraid that dropping the an will damage our country. We are grown up men and women. "Pretending there is no homosexual feeling has not made homosexuality disappear. It has merely made us hypocrites. Our soldiers do not need to be protected from these simple truths. (p.152)" Dropping the ban will not destroy America. We will still be a strong, proud country -- our flag will still be there.

Lois Shawver, Ph.D.
clinical psychologist

Shawver, Lois. And the Flag Was Still There: Straight People, Gay People,

and Sexuality in the U.S. Military. Binghamton: The Haworth Press, 1995.

My book is available in your bookstore or directly from Haworth Press 1-800-342-9678.

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

From: Patricia Herrling

There are two things at least about Lois Shawver's response to Mary Salm's message that I do not agree with. One is the statement below.

That is not the posture of an objective researcher. Having something to prove like this, compromises the quality of any research, and so, however much we care about Mary Salm's inner pain, we cannot trust her conclusions.

To say that anyone who has an opinion or stake in something cannot objectively report on data they have researched is not correct. EVERYONE has a stake or opinion about most things. It is the methodology you use in research and the presentation of the data that is important. Most people do not research something they have no interest in.

The other thing I question is her statement as follows.

Using their reported data, I think the most reasonable estimate is that at least 12 to 18 percent of women in the military would qualify as lesbian if they were honest about it.

That is quite a statement! IF THEY WERE HONEST?

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

Mary Salm does not so much claim to be an objective academic researcher as a primary source. My impression is that most work on gay and lesbian history has been written by gay men and lesbians. Mary Salm, as a straight woman who served, should not automatically be considered less credible in reporting her experience than Johnnie Phelps.

In my book (referenced below) I have reviewed what I believe to be trustworthy studies to reach an estimate of the proportion of gays and lesbians in the military. I did not do this research myself, but I studied the reports carefully and I talked with many of the researchers on these projects. Using their reported data, I think the most reasonable estimate is that at least 12 to 18 percent of women in the military would qualify as lesbian if they were honest about it.

Shawver's estimate might be considered high by some, but it is reasonable. What Mary Salm and her WAC friends object to is a much higher estimate. According to Johnnie Phelps, of approximately nine hundred women in the WAC battalion attached to Eisenhower's headquarters, 95 percent were lesbians

The remark about "honesty" is interesting. My own practice is to identify lesbians as I identify Christians, sociologists and other classes of people: by self-identification. Some Christians believe they pay Jews a compliment when they praise their "Christian" charity. Kipling's highest praise for Gunga Din was that he was "white inside." I know that many lesbians feel they compliment a woman when they say she is "really" lesbian but doesn't realize it. Since lesbian became a gender category -- an alternative to masculine or feminine -- those who adopt it often believe that "feminine" women are weak, subservient to men, incompetent and stupid although they may refrain from saying so in "mixed company." I have been complimented by some of my lesbian friends who tell me that in their eyes I am "an honorary dyke." Among friends, I will accept that as kindly-intended praise just as I do if a Jew calls me a Mensch or a woman of color, mislead by a dark suntan and my curly black hair, addresses me in Spanish.

As witch-hunting peaked in 1990, a memo from the admiral heading the Navy's Atlantic command helpfully described the "stereotypical lesbian" as "hardworking, career-oriented, willing to put in long hours on the job and among the command's top professionals." He ordered the nearly 200 ships and 40 shore installations in his command to deal "firmly" with them. If all Johnnie Phelps meant to say in her interviews and published memoirs was that 95 percent of Eisenhower's WACs in World War II were strong, intelligent, independent women, none of the elderly ladies who are now so upset would be offended.

Often it is hard for a younger generation to realize that many unmarried women of an earlier age, including those who lived their lives in non-sexual partnerships with another woman (Boston marriages), emphatically deny that they are lesbians. Until fairly recently it was almost impossible for a military women (or any professional woman for that matter) to have a full career unless she foreswore marriage and the decision to do so usually had nothing to do with sexual preferences.

Many writers on women's military issues believe that witch hunting's primary purpose is to hound all of the most competent women out of the service because of the professional threat they pose to an overwhelmingly male institution. An accusation -- a mere suspicion-- of lesbianism can put the brakes on the career of a hard-charger. Nevertheless, most of the competent women in the military __honestly__ do NOT self-identify as lesbian. Since we are accustomed to hear strong, independent, pioneering women saying they are not "feminists," without accusing them of dishonesty, surely we can allow them similarly to deny that they are lesbians (or intellectuals, or liberals, or Christians, or sociologists . . . )

Linda Grant De Pauw

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

EDITOR'S NOTE
Mary Salm has sent me some more material for the list including some remarks by other former WAC who are not on the net. If you reply to the list, please also send comments by regular mail to
Mary M. Salm
1900 Acklen Ave. #1106
Nashville, TN 37212-3730
LGDeP

It was very nice talking with you this morning. Glad to know someone considers my research on lesbians in the WAC is important enough to publish my letter. I appreciate very much that just maybe I will be getting some help to correct what I call the BIG LIE.

As I mentioned, the woman officer who was in charge of the Third WAC Training Center at Fort Oglethorpe in WW II, lives here in Nashville. I have only talked with her by phone as she is not in good health and really doesn't want to be bothered. I do send her things I think she would be interested in, not expecting a reply. In July 1944 when the Army Inspector General's investigation of homosexual activities at the Center, she was there. When I asked her about this time period she told me she only suspected two girls, She thought they were just good friends and away from home for the first time. All she did was transfer them to different stations. After that there were no more rumors.

I am enclosing two letters from former WW II WAC officers stating their views on the subject. I am sure there are more out there if they would just come forward.

In the book "Hidden From History--Reclaiming the Gay and Lesbian Past" edited by Martine Duberman, Martha Vicinus, George Chauncy, Jr., is a chapter from Alan Berube's books: "The History of Gay Men and Women in World War II- -Marching to a Different Drummer. This is on page 385 quoting: "a certain number of women," to "be with other women." This comes from William Menninger's book, page 106; "Psychiatry in a Troubled World". Berube makes his OWN statement that "These women who chose to "be with other women" enlisted in great numbers, and lesbians seem to have made up a large percentage of the corps. What he does not quote is: "Perhaps a very small number were overtly homosexual, though the problem was never a serious one in the WAC." Now, does that sound like "lesbians seem to have made up a large percentage of the corps."?? No way.

Randy Shilts in his book: "Conduct Unbecoming" says on page 140" By some counts, albeit imprecise ones, lesbians comprises as much as 80% of the women in World War II." He does not have statistics to back up this percentage. He also uses that Johnnie Phelps interview.

I think if anyone pursues research on this subject they can learn that these gay and lesbian writers do not tell the whole truth. I certainly would be glad to share with anyone what I have unearthed so far. It is rather slow going but I always check bookstores and libraries. Let's hope that younger scholars will pick up the torch and help clear our good name and reputation. I am not out to bash gays and lesbians. I believe in live and let live. I do not push my heterosexual lifestyle on them. But right is right! I just hope that Johnnie Phelps can have the whistle blown on her before it is too late.

I do appreciate your help and if you need to know more, let me know. Hope you will correct my spelling as I get in a hurry and even with proof reading miss some mistakes.

Sincerely,
Mary M. Salm
1900 Acklen Ave. #1106
Nashville, TN 37212-3730

Dated 7 February 1995

......... I just don't know what those who are homos are trying to do -- suppose they want to justify their life style. I spent almost 7 years in the WAAC/WAC and to my knowledge never ran into any. We formed friendships which have lasted over the years but they were not of a sexual nature to be sure. We certainly didn't go in looking for "relationships". In fact, most of us would have been scandalized if we'd known any. I always thought we were a pretty pure lot. We were wives, mothers, sisters, daughters -- all in it for the same cause-- to serve our Country.

"In every walk of life there are always a few "bad apples" but to .. blatantly tar us with the same brush is appalling.

"I was Company Commander at Fort Des Moines, in Boston, Egypt and China -- about 41 years altogether and I can say I never saw any lesbian activity in any of my Companies. In fact within the close proximity we all lived, it would have been rather difficult for any shenanigans.

"When I was at the Presidio of SF in 1947, I heard the Staff Director discuss the fact there was a smear campaign going on but I never ' heard anymore on the subject. At that time I worked in AG Section.

"When I went to Japan and was Military Secretary to the CO, I was also WAC Staff and there I heard absolutely nothing on the subject.

"There was only one time I did hear of allegations and that was when I took over the Company in Egypt. The Company Commander was relieved and sent to Eritrea (the one and only woman in an all male post-and which I am sure was against regulations) because someone accused her being overfond with an enlisted woman. I always felt she was unjustly accused. Seems the young girl had had an appendectomy on the ship going overseas. Said individual was just a kid -- from a small town in Arkansas who'd never been away from home scared and subject to nightmares. She was CQ one night, it seems and the CO, who lived with the Exec. adjacent to the Orderly Room, went in to comfort her. The OD reported the matter , she was relieved, the lst Sgt. tore off her stripes, the EW piled up the mattresses and threatened to burn the barracks 'when the CO got shipped out. I always felt'-the Exec. and her little stool pigeon Company Clerk -- one wanting to be CO and the other lst Sgt. were at the bottom of the whole mess. Anyway, that's when my former Staff Director who by then was head honcho of the ASF WACs in Washington, recommended I be sent over.

"I always felt the CO got a raw deal. In those days Company officers lived with their Companies, played sports with them and stood up for them protecting them with our WAC Regulations. There in Egypt, they looked upon that as fraternizing.

....... "But I can truthfully say I never was "instructed" nor did I ever hear of any other officers so instructed by my superiors about dealing with "lesbians". I never ran into any and as I said the only time I heard it brought up was in the case in Egypt and I felt she was falsely accused because she would not go out with the old goat of an Exec. .... He was the only officer who sexually harassed WAC officers . . . "

Rose McGowan- WAAC/WAC 1942-1949

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

During my time in Military Service as a WAC (1943-1948), I was not (am not) Gay. The period I was in was World War II. The nauseating book written by the Gay, Randie Shiltz and the article about Johnnie Phelps .... She was a sickie even as a child. (How did she get past a Recruiting officer, in the first place with her background?) I am appalled and disgusted that there are books like that available. I was stationed in Frankfurt, Germany and I never had or saw a Polish displaced person around the WAC Apartments I was billeted in, to take care of us. I worked in the I. G. Farben Buildina, I saw General Eisenhower a lot and we spoke often. I knew his Staff Car Driver, I never heard the story of him asking for a list of WAC lesbians and I don't believe it ever happened.

Are we supposed to take the printed word of Shiltz and a person like Johnnie Phelps? Live and Let Live, To Each his Own, but be honest and truthful. Who cares about your personal life style? Do not slander and cast aspersions and lies that you cannot prove, or even know about, as facts when you write.

None of the WACS, that I was in Germany with, or knew of, ever ended up in psychiatric hospitals or had battle fatigue. I have kept in touch with many WAC friends and I belong to a large National WAC Organization and I know a lot of ex-WACs and a lot of WAVES ... none that I know fall into the category in Shilts book, nor do they deserve to be referred to in that manner. I know personally Colonel Elizabeth C. Strayhorn Walsh and I knew personally Captain Mildred McAfee Horton ... and it is despicable that their names should appear in the book by Allan Berube = Coming Out Under Fire ... The History of Gay Men and Women in World War Two. I would love to hear that lady, Mildred Horton, tell him off, she was so-o-o- good at it. I know she would turn blue to see that she was referred to as the "Old Man", and the remarks about her WAVES drinking like gentlemen; it is disgraceful. Remarks like these MU8T be stopped. It is so unjust and un-called for. I have seen enough about this, and it should stop!! How can we defend ourselves against these accusations .... we have tried to ignore it, hoping it would go away. That is not working .... it MUST STOP. The American Military Woman does not need this. If the shoe fits that is another story.... but lies for the purpose of sensationalism should not be tolerated. Write about the Gays, if they must .... but do not write that all the women in the WACs in WW-II were gay.

Ada B. Jones
WW-II WAC

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

From: Yvonne M. Klein

I cannot understand why Mary Salm, who is not so much as a subscriber to this list, should be encouraged to post correspondence which includes defamatory and insulting language. Words like "sicko," "wierdo," "nauseating," and "disgusting," in reference to human behaviour, have no place on a list like Minerva, which is presumably interested in establishing a reasonable level of discourse about women and war and women and the military. The two letters quoted have little evidentairy standing regarding the presence or absence of lesbians in the WAAC in WWII--the writers are so keenly interested in maintaining a particular point of view that their words remain only of anecdotal significance. I am surprised that this list has been put at the disposal of those who ignore the most ordinary demands of civility--had they been racists would their posts have been so readily disseminated? Yvonne M. Klein

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military
From: Salvatore_B

"As witch-hunting peaked in 1990, a memo from the admiral heading the Navy's Atlantic command helpfully described the 'stereotypical lesbian' as 'hardworking, career-oriented, willing to put in long hours on the job and among the command's top professionals.' He ordered the nearly 200 ships and 40 shore installations in his command to deal 'firmly' with them. "

.... whereas of course any male officer who fitted that description would be prime promotion material. apparently the answer to Professor Higgins's plaint, "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" is that by doing so she would mark herself as a member of a third sex and so, after all, never a woman in the first place.

it's amazing to me that even at that late (but of course pre-Tailhook) date, anyone in a high administrative position in public service could possibly be so severely in need of consciousness-raising.

and i _really_ like that "firmly" -- after all, everyone knows that all that's really wrong with a lesbian is that she's never had the privilege of sexual congress with a _real_ man.

W. L. Salvatore

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

From: Angie Dorman

Is it possible that you both could be a little extreme?

As I've been reading the thread, I've been discussing it with my husband (SP Maj USAF).

It's a great deal easier to label women lesbians in a macho environment than to deal with the fact that they might not want someone crawling all over them that they do not choose, in particular a commander. In society in general and especially in the military, close women friendships are not well understood and often deemed lesbian.

I don't see that homosexuality should be an issue in serving in the military, or anything else. But at the same time you critisize the WAC for being defensive, it looks like you have a bias too -- to prove the prior service, excellence of homosexuals.

If the evidence isn't hard and fast and something that is able to be nailed down, it shouldn't be used except as stated opinion on the writer's part --- a problem we all come up against.

--Angie Dorman

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Lesbians in the Military

From: Patricia Herrling

In response to Linda's coments as to the posting of Mary Salms letters and her letters from other WWII women....

I agree very much and thank her for stating her reasons so clearly. I know little about this subject, but I would like to and the first step towards that is hearing from all sides. I don't care for certain kinds of language myself, but would rather sift the wheat from the chaff than not hear the message at all.

Believe me...the terminology people use sends its own message and leaves its own impressions along with the facts and opinions expressed.

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