From holoweb@h-net.msu.edu Thu Aug 22 14:21:32 1996 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> To: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> Subject: log 9409a
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with BSMTP id 8805; Mon, 12 Aug 96 13:53:36 CDT Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6042; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:32 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UICVM (1.8b)" <LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU> Subject: File: "HOLOCAUS LOG9409A" To: H-NET Help <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 09:36:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Info on other Quote
From: Nicole Cunningham <nicolejc@csd.uwm.edu>
This quote was brought up in conjunction with the quote at the Museum. Hoowever, it was mistakenly attributed to Elie Wiesel. It is actually from Primo Levi's *Survival in Auschwitz*
.You who live safe
.In your warm houses
.You who find, returning in the evening,
.Hot food and friendly faces:
.Consider if this is a man
.Who works in the mud
.Who does not know peace
.Who fights for a scrap of bread
.Who dies because of a yes or a no.
.Consider if this is a woman,
.Without hair and without name
.With no more strength to remember,
.Her eyes empty and her womb cold
.Like a frog in winter.
.Meditate that this came about:
.I commend these words to you.
.Carve them in your hearts
.At home, in the street,
.Going to bed, rising:
.Repeat them to your children,
.Or may your house fall apart,
.May illness impede you,
.May your children turn their faces from you.
Nicole J. Cunningham email: nicolejc@csd.uwm.edu Modern Studies voice: 414.223.3070 (h) Dept of English and Comp Lit 414.229.4141 (o)
Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:41:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need Information on availability of account on Auschwitz
From: John Conway <jconway@unixg.ubc.ca>
A recent message (which I have now lost and so can't trace the author)
mentioned, in passing, that the first eye-witness accounts of events in
Auschwitz came from Rudi Vrba and Alfred Wetzler, who escaped
successfully from the camp on April 7th 1944. Their information was
passed to Hungary and from there to Switzerland, and found widespread
publication in the western press, but not until late June. This report
is widely credited as having played a role in the order given by the
Regent of Hungary, Horthy, to have the deportation of Hungarian Jews to
Auschwitz stopped (temporarily) on July 7th.
Rudi Vrba's account of his experiences was first published in England
under the Title "I cannot forgive", Sidwick and Jackson 1963.
The latest edition is called "44070: The Conspiracy of the 20th Century",
to which I have appended a forty-page 'Afterword' putting the report in
its context.
Can someone please verify that copies of this edition are available at
the bookshop in the US Holocaust Museum?
You will be glad to know that Dr Vrba is alive and well, and has recently
been celebrating the 50th anniversary of his escape.
John S.Conway, UBC, Vancouver
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need Information on Generalleutnant Scherer
From: "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@pcad-ml.actx.edu>
Hello, Viktoria!
I think I can help you, if you still need the assistance. Please advise.
I possess General Scherer's complete military career. General Theodor Scherer was the defender of commander all the forces in the Cholm pocket.
Please advise.
Terry
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Conversion in Hungary
From: "Sidney Bolkosky" <SBOLKOSK@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu>
> From: SZELITCH@delphi.com
>
> As Hungary wasn't actually occupied by Germany until very late in the war,
> I've always been under the impression that it had an independent (and
> more generous) policy towards converts to Christianity than neighboring
> countries. Was this true? Also, how easy was it for Jews to convert (to
> Catholicism or Protestantism) and did the policy last until the end of the
> war, or was it overturned when the Germans finally invaded?
>
> Thanks in advance for any information or leads on information.
>
> Simone Zelitch
> szelitch@delphi.com
Simone, Several Hungarian/Czech survivors whom I have interviewed
recall being urged to convert at various moments during the war.
This even occurred, in one case, shortly after the German occupation>
in March, 1944. I don't know statistics on the success of the
conversion drive, none of that helped very much once Eichmann and his
crew arrived.
Sid Bolkosky
UM-Dearborn
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Zamosc
From: Joanne Rudof <JOANNER@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu>
Please check RLIN/AMC, our database of record, or see our printed Guide,
second edition, listing testimonies of persons from Zamosc or who were
there
or speak about it.
Joanne Rudof, Archivist
Fortunoff Video Archive for Holocaust Testimonies
Yale University
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 13:06:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: The Term "Holocaust" vs "Shoah"
From: David A Hirsch <david@iowalaw.com>
Sid Bolkosky writes:
> For all the rhetoric, there was little that was sacred > about starving, gassing, shooting
Except for Kiddush Ha Shem. Within the obscenity of the act perpetrated is
the Sanctification of the Name by the deaths of those who died solely
because
they were Jewish. That may or may not be justification for the term
"Holocaust," but the way observant Jews died clearly made its mark on many
of
the perpetrators themselves. While those who died may or may not have been
"victims of state (secular) ideologies," the way they died had religious
meaning within the Jewish context (of fighting where there is any chance of
inflicting damage on the other side, and complete submission where there is
no
chance to fight).
David A. Hirsch
Beckman, Hirsch & Ell Telephone: 319-754-8404 314 North Fourth Fax: 319-754-6302 Burlington, IA 52601 david@iowalaw.com
From: Abraham (eibie) Weizfeldt UQAM Montreal Kebek
d256344@er.uqam.ca
Yes I believe that I also agree that _SHOA_ is preferable and I would also say that the definition as a _Brunt Sacrifice_ is not really a lessening because a complete devastation was not allowed, and in addition the _Brunt Sacrifice_ was actually us, the Jewish People .. although what I find lacking is the knowledge that it was the Christian authorities that sacrificed us to their god. This the Christians call a _Holy War_ a term that can equally be applied.
Still yet, I would prefer to use a Jiddish word instead since that is what I am and so wish to maintain that which has not been completely destroyed. In fact we as a People were able to form the first line of resistance against the Nazi-Fascist movement, and furthermore were able to gather the support of the Soviet Union and those People in the struggle of resistance until the English speaking countries were willing to engage in the opposition to the Nazies.
So I would think of _De Toite Stat_
But to continue, more than Sanctity there is Truth in the name
_SHOA_ ..
but there is more that is perserved from our People than the physical
entities that we are, our consciousness is perserved in what we know of
our culture. For me this includes our political culture because I am
aware of it. I was among the first to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto
Uprising at the Workman's Circle building at Lawrence and Bathurst in
Toronto around 1978 when the regular Jewish institutions thought such a
comemoration would detract from the State of Israel.
Just as my Mother was a Bundist union member so am I also of the Bundist Jewish movement. And I find it odd that the regular Jewish movement has so disparaged the surviving Jewish refugees that have come to North America. It is much like the German Jewish population which couldn't bring itself to be associated with the East European Jewry. This sort of Upper class snobbish anti-semitism is of course an insult. And yet I have found that when it comes to Jiddish and to politics there are many insults that I cannot accept in silence.
For instance, there is a letter printed in the August 25-31, 1994 issue of NOW magazine in Toronto by Jacob Medlovic who opposes the current campaign against the neo-Nazies by the Jewish community because he considers "the greatest source of anti-Semitism" comes from the "not inconsequential extreme left" Jewish people "who are obsesssed with demonizing Israel in books and magazines". Well this man is really lost if he thinks that he is being Jewish by taking an abstentionist stance towards the neo-Nazies and a hostile position war-like position towards a portion of his own people who in fact represent the surviving tradition of East European Jewry. This is of course typical of the Zionist parties position during the SHOA/Toite Stat who did not promote the Jewish boycott of the German State under Nazi rule and instead concentrated on the occupation of Palestine as it was called.
Mendlovic may be referring to me as one who writes
since I have published two books on this topic and if so he may be pleased
that I was actually arrested for the distribution of my last book _The End
of Zionism and
the liberation of the Jewish People_ at Concordia University in the week
following the Hebron massacre carried out by Baruch Goldstein and others.
I just need to say that I know who I am and such insults are no longer acceptable.
[ This correspondence has also been submitted to the NOW Magazine] 31/08/94
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 13:16:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Duras book
From: michael rothberg <MPRGC%CUNYVM@uic.edu>
Hi, this is my first posting and i'm glad to be a part of this.
The Marguerite Duras book is not called "La guerre" in French, but
rather "La douleur" (approx. the suffering, the grief). "The War" is a
translator's
invention. It is an incredible book, although it's true that it's hard to
believe she had completely forgotten about it. It's also quite clear that
she has
made at least a few minor changes to the text since rediscovering it. Of
related
interest is Robert Antelme's camp memoir, "L'espece humaine," recently
translated
as "The Human Race" (I believe). He was Duras's husband at the time and is
the
subject of "La douleur", known as Robert L. He was a political prisoner, and
not jewish. His memoir is extremely powerful, and comparable, I think, to
those
of Primo Levi, etc.
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 14:06:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Death Camp Lists
From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Serge Klarsfeld's compilation "Memorial de la Deportation des Juifs de France", Paris, 1978, may be considered a death camp list, since the camp of destination (mostly Auschwitz, but also Sobibor and Majdanek) and the names of survivors are indicated. There exists a similar volume for the Jews of Belgium, edited by Serge Klarsfeld and Maxime Steinberg, Brussels, 1982
Gaston L. Schmir
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 14:06:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Significance of 5 in a lineup
From: John McLeod <mcleodj@herald.usask.ca> This "significance" of the choice of 5 seemed so obvious that I hesitated to interfere. Before WWII, the British Army used to "form fours", i.e. march 4 abreast, and about the time of the outbreak of WWII changed to rows of 3. Maybe the British, accustomed to a duodecimal system (12 inches=1 foot, 12 pence=1 shilling) found it easier to count in 3's or 4's than did their European counterparts. How many abreast did European armies march?
Turning to a more serious numerical question, what was the organization or system, if any, of the tattooed identification numbers? All my survivor friends have 5-digit numbers, but I noticed in the Holocaust Museum that some internees had numbers preceded by the letters AE. I have always assumed that new arrivals at Auschwitz who were to be murdered immediately were not tattooed.
John McLeod
(John.McLeod@usask.ca)
(Voice phone: 1-306-374-8077)
(Voice phone or fax: 1-306-374-9898)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 14:11:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Auschwitz or Oswiecim
From: anthony.northey@acadiau.ca
Sept. 1
For what it is worth a marginal note to the Auschwitz/Oswiecim observations: From my (extensive) perambulations in the Jewish cemetery in Prague (Strasnice) in the course of my research I noticed that the slavic designation Oswiecim (Oswieczim?) or Osvietim was generally used on gravestones of concentration camp victims (gravestones, which for the most part, I assume, were placed in the late 40's or early 50's).
From: Elsa Wachs <efw@netaxs.com>
Can someone give me or lead me to information on
Elsa Wachs efw@netaxs.com
Wallingford, PA
fax-610-566-8222
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 14:29:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: U.S. Holocaust Museum WWW Server
Although I called people's attention before to the existence of the Holocaust Museum's WWW server, for those of you who missed it, here is the information on how to connect with it.
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Shalom,
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is establishing a
WWW Server. It is still an experimental project but it already
can be accessed.
The URL is the following:
URL: http://www.ushmm.org/home.html
For those of you who do not have access to a WWW client (browser)
like Mosaic or Lynx I have included the Holocaust Memorial Museum
in the main menu of the Global Jewish Information Network Server.
It is accessible by telnet:
telnet www.huji.ac.il
login: JEWISHNET
No password required
The URL for the Global is the following:
URL: http://www.huji.ac.il/www_jewishn/www/t01.html
Here follows the initial screen in the Holocaust Memorial Museum WWW Server:
Opened in April 1993, on the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., summons all who enter its portals to rise to an important and extraordinary challenge: to remember and immortalize the 6 milion Jews and millions of other Nazi victims of World War II -- Gypsies, Poles, homosexuals, the handicapped, Jehovah's Witnesses, political and religious dissidents, Soviet prisoners of war -- who were murdered in the most horrifying event of our time: the Holocaust.
The main task of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is to present the facts of the Holocaust, to tell the American public as clearly and comprehensively as possible what happened in that darkest chapter of human history. To this end, the Museum has reconstructed the history of the Holocaust through multiple media: the meaningful arrangement of objects as well as the presentation of documentary photographic and cinematographic materials. This museum holds the world's largest and most diversified collection of Holocaust-related objects; but in its display it is a "conceptual museum" rather than a traditional, object-oriented one: it's primary purpose is to communicate concepts, complex information, and knowledge, rather than merely to display objects of the Holocaust, unrelated to the historical context of each individual exhibit.
A visit to the museum, or a tour through the virtual exhibition, will be an interesting and challenging learning experience but, at the same time, it also will be a thought-provoking, disturbing, and personally upsetting one. And so it should be.
Jeshajuha Weinberg, Director from The World Must Know
This server is under construction. Sections will be added as they become available.
[IMAGE] General Information
[IMAGE] Educational Programs
[IMAGE] the Research Institute
[IMAGE] Association of Holocaust Organizations
[IMAGE]
[IMAGE] Archive Search (under construction)
*
*
Dov Winer
Ben Gurion University
viener@bgumail.bgu.ac.il
Global Jewish Information Network To subscribe to - JEWISHNT
telnet www.huji.ac.il send to LISTSERV@bguvm.bgu.ac.il the
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login: JEWISHNET SUBscribe JEWISHNT <full name of
subscriber>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 22:56:09 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Holocaust Course at Harvard
From: MBetsy@aol.com
Hi Everyone,
I've been meaning to write this for a while. I know that a lot of you are interested in learning about the course "Understanding the Holocaust and Genocide" taught by Eric Goldhagen at Harvard University. When I intially began mentioning the class to the list Dr. Goldhagen contacted me to the effect that he wanted to speak with me before I went ahead and openly posted his idea. He simply wants to make sure that the 2 year span since the time I took his class hasn't changed the way I perceived his ideas.
The problem is that before I could call him he left for Europe. He will be back sometime in the middle-to-end of September. At that point I will speak with him and then post much information on the class, including descriptions, syllabus, reading lists, films etc.
Thanks for your patience, I haven't forgotten any of you who have showed an interest in the class.
Sincerely,
Michael Betsy (mbetsy@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 19:35:25 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of Former Nazi
Guard
From: "Connelly, William" <wconnelly@ushmm.org>
From: elimr ("Eli M. Rosenbaum")
Subject: Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of former Nazi Guard
Date: Thu, 25 Aug
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CRM
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 24, 1994 202-514-2007
(TDD) 202-514-1888
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT MOVES TO REVOKE CITIZENSHIP
OF FORMER GUARD AT NAZI SLAVE LABOR CAMP
WASHINGTON, D.C.-- The Department of Justice announced today that it has initiated denaturalization proceedings to revoke the U.S. citizenship of a Schiller Park, Illinois, man whom it charges with concealing his service and activities as an armed guard at a Nazi slave labor camp in German-occupied Poland during World War II.
A complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Chicago today by the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) of the Justice Department's Criminal Division and the U.S. Attorney's Office in Chicago alleges that the defendant, Bronislaw Hajda, 70, was trained as a guard at the SS Training Camp in Trawniki, Poland, an SS training facility and base camp that supplied guards and auxiliary police personnel principally to assist the Nazis in implementing their plans to annihilate the Jews of Europe.
The complaint also alleges that Hajda, a native of Poland and a retired machinist, served as an armed guard of prisoners at the SS Labor Camp at Treblinka, Poland, from March 1943 until the liquidation of the camp in July 1944. During the course of the slave labor camp's existence, thousands of Jewish and Polish prisoners died there from shootings, beatings, hangings, malnourishment and exhaustion, the complaint said.
The complaint further alleges that in July 1944, during the liquidation of the Treblinka Labor Camp, hundreds of Jewish prisoners were shot to death in a single massacre and that the defendant participated in this killing operation.
The Treblinka Labor Camp was part of a complex that also included the nearby Treblinka Death Camp, where more than 800,000 people, nearly all Jews, were murdered in gas chambers.
Hajda subsequently served in the "SS Battalion Streibel" until at least April 1945, the complaint said.
The complaint alleges that Hajda's service with the SS-- adjudged a criminal organization in 1946 by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, Germany--constituted assistance in the Nazi program of persecution based on race, religion and national origin. It also charges that Hajda's service constituted membership in a "movement hostile to the United States," which rendered him ineligible to immigrate to the United States under United States law.
The complaint further alleges that Hajda willfully concealed his service with the SS Training Camp Trawniki, his service at the Treblinka Labor Camp, and his service with the SS Battalion Streibel in applying for immigration to the U.S. in 1950, and for naturalization as a U.S. citizen in 1955.
The initiation of proceedings to denaturalize Hajda is a
product of OSI's ongoing efforts to identify and take legal
action against former participants in Nazi persecution who reside
in the United States. To date, 50 Nazi persecutors have been
stripped of U.S. citizenship as a result of OSI's investigations
and prosecutions, and 42 have been removed from the United
States.
####
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 19:40:08 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Conversion in Hungary
From: PHIDAS@runt.dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Concerning the fate of converted Jews consult Randolph L. Braham's
The POlitics of Genocide, The Holocaust in Hungary (Columbia UP,
1981).esp. volume 2, pp.777-781
the somewhat privileged position enjoyed by the converts became a matter of life
and death following Hungary's entry into the war in June 1941.
Between this time and the German occupation in March 1944, most
new converts were persons who were subject to the military-related
labour service laws. As converts they were usually placed in special labour
service companies (although some served in mixed companies with Jews)
and wore white armbands in contrast to the yellow of the Jews.
As members of these special white armband companies, they were very
unlikely to be sent to the front lines in Galicia and the Ukraine,
which in many cases meant certain death.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
phidas@dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 19:59:38 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Queries on Budapest and Auschwitz
From: "Kenneth.Waltzer" <21409MGR@msu.edu>
My impression is that there is a presence of Hungarian Jewish survivors in the survivor community of metropolitan Detroit. The Holocaust Memorial in West Bloomfield has collected videos of survivors and their life stories and it would be a worthwhile place to contact to obtain names of people or to visit to work with their videos.
I recently came across a couple of books which may be of interest, both by
Raphael Patai, both published by University of Utah Press. The first is
called APPRENTICE IN BUDAPEST, and though
it only covers the years up until 1933, in contains a lot of very
interesting
details about Jewish life, as Patai's father was very active in the Jewish
Community, including the Zionist movement. The second, BETWEEN BUDAPEST AND
JERUSALEM, is really a series of letters between Patai and his parents, and
covers later years, though it tends to focus on life in Palestine more than
life in Budapest. By the way: I've seen both of these books remaindered in
local shops, and they're well worth buying.
For details about Budapest, and Hungary in general, during the war years, I'm sure you'll soon be steered towards Randolph Braham's THE POLITICS OF GEONOCIDE, a comprehensive and very well written two-volume history.
Hope I've been of some assistance.
Best regards,
Simone Zelitch
szelitch@delphi.com
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 20:15:19 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Conversion in Hungary
From: PHIDAS@runt.dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Addendum
The Second Jewish Law of Hungary recognized the conversion of those Jews
who converted before 1919 and whose familiy resided in Hungary since
1848. There were about 90,000 Christians of Jewish origin in Hungary
in 1941. The First Jewish Law deprived the religious status of
35,000 of them; the Second Jewish Law did the same for a further
24,000. They were deported in 1944 along with the other Jews of the
Hungarian countryside and of towns except for Budapest. Most
converts lived in Budapest. Priests, nuns and lay church officials
were exempted from the anti-Jewish measures and were not deported.
53,000 converts survived the Holocaust in Hungary.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
phidas@dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 11:59:12 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
Organization: Dickinson State University
Subject: Anti-Semitism and the Polish Home Army (AK)
A Past That Hurts
Helga Hirsch's article "Eine Vergangenheit, die schmerzt" [A Past That Hurts] appeared in the German weekly Die Zeit on 17 June 1994. This rough translations is mine and is intended to convey both the spirit and substance of her article. However, where her references seemed to off into space....so did the translation. I hope I have provided a reasonable translation:
Helga Hirsch is a young Polish journalist who has chosen to focus on a difficult aspect of Polish history: Poles who oppressed, robbed, and murdered Jews during the Second World War. The articles introduction included a quote from the editor of Poland's largest daily news paper, Adam Michnik, who said: "I think that the ability to confront the darker episodes of one's inheritance is for every people a test of its degree of democratic maturity."
Hirsch's article runs roughly as follows:
History does not allow much room for mythology. It is only a question of time before a younger generation of daughters and sons, nephews and nieces tear apart the history of their parents and grandparents -- though not with the intention of harming them.
The young journalist Michal Cichy of the Gazeta Wyborca, Poland's largest daily newspaper, no doubt had little idea of the effect of his charges upon Polish society. Cichy accused the sacrosanct Polish underground and Home Army (AK) of having murdered Jews during the 1944 uprising. In return, Cichy was attacked for his anti-Polish position.
Responding to Cichy's claims, the leading veterans' organization (Union of Soldiers of the Home Army) acknowledged that some members of the AK did engage in such activities but represented a small and regrettable portion of the AK as a whole. Cichy's article, however, cast a shadow over the activities of thousands whose only concern was the freedom of the Polish people. Furthermore, there were many who fought side by side with Polish Jews against the Nazis.
Within the heated public atmosphere, Cichy sought further documentation in Poland's various institutes and archives but without substantial success. The issue, however, was changing its character from a focus on the Home Army to the nature of Polish-Jews relations during the Second World War. By and large a collage of perspectives have emerged.
As a more general observation, Poland remains in the minds of many Jews an anti-Semitic land. Poles were either indifferent to the fate of the Jews and/or were willing to accept their elimination as a consequence of the Nazi occupation. On the other hand, no one questions the place of Poles among the "Righteous Among Nations" honored at Yad Vashem's Holocaust memorial. Alongside these Poles one should also remember the nun and monks of various Catholic orders and numerous others who attempted to help the Zegota (Hilfsrat fuer Juden). However, beside the brighter side of Polish-Jewish relations, there remains the darker aspects.
Poles generally did not collaborate with their Nazi occupiers. Polish anti-Semitism, similarly, did not become a subject of discussion between Poles and Germans. Aleksander Smolar, a Polish sociologist who emigrated after the 1968 anti-Semitic outburst, believed that during the Nazi occupation Polish antiSemitism largely disappeared from the streets as well as from the underground press, political parties, and military units. On the other hand, Calel Perechodnik wrote in his 1943 memoirs that Polish peasants (and "lower elements" in Polish society) took advantage of the Nazi occupation to take advantage of this opportunity of the century to take out their revenge against Poland's Jews. Under the Nazi occupation, they could beat and plunder Jews with impunity. Many viewed this as a "now or never" opportunity. Besides, they did not consider themselves guilty of any crimes. Those responsible were the Germans.
One such sad event took place in January 1943 as the then twentythree year old Irena Fiszelson was on her way to her hideaway in Warsaw. Waiting for the train at Naleczow, a Pole, despite her blond hair, recognized her and demanded 500 Zloty or risk arrest. Later, riding the train, she entered into a conversation with a railroad worker. Two days later that same railroad worker met her at the entrance to her Warsaw hideaway and demanded money for his continued silence. Even so, two days later he informed the Polish police of her location. Although Irena was not home when the police arrived, her small son was and his release came only after the payment of 5000 Zloty. These incidents also made it imperative for her to find a new place to hide.
These types of activities were more common in the immediate vicinity of the ghettos and concentration camps. Those who escape the ghetto into the "Aryan" quarter of the city were often met by Polish bands demanding payment even if it meant the clothes off the backs of the Jewish escapees. Escapees from the concentration camps often fell into the hands of Polish peasants, who assumed -- not always incorrectly -- that Jews carried with them sacks of gold and other valuables. Polish historian Teresa Prekerowa observed that those inhabiting the areas around Treblinka and Sobibor became apparently quite wealthy as a consequence.
Blackmailers were usually satisfied with money, gold, clothing, or furniture, and let their victims move on. Some Jews, however, paid with their lives. Erna Rosenstein, a painter with the "Krakow group" living today in Warsaw, lost her mother and father after she left them with a Pole promising to hide them from the Germans. The same Pole, however, took her parents from the village and into the forest were he murdered them.
Already in November 1941, the commander of the Home Army, General Grot-Rowecki, indicated to the London government-in-exile that the overwhelming majority of Poles were fundamentally antiSemitic. When the respected Catholic weekly newspaper Tygodnik Powszechny asked forty years after the end of the war if Poles shared in the fate of the Jews because of their general indifference to the Holocaust, the newspaper was flooded with angry letters and forced the paper to distance itself from the whole issue.
The central theme aired in the Tygodnik Powszechny fell only into the realm of Polish guilt as a result of general passivity. This same theme took on more specific dimensions with Michal Cichy's article on the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 and the antiSemitic activities of the Home Army and the Polish underground.
On the evening of September 11, 1943, AK soldiers ran across a group of Jews -- men, women, and children -- hiding in a bunker at Prosta Street 4. After forcing them out and searching them, the soldiers took the men into an area near Zelazna Street and shot them one by one. Twenty-nine year old Janel Celnik testified later that after being shot in the shoulder, the soldier stood over him and shot roughly another seven rounds. Three hit Celnik -- one in the neck and twice in the shoulder blade. Convinced that Celnik was dead, the soldier left. As the night progressed, Celnik dragged himself into the ruble to hide. Throughout the night, he could hear additional shots and cries from other victims in the area. As it turned out, the soldiers had returned to the bunker where they shot the women and children. Under the direction of Captain Hal, the AK murdered better than a dozen Jews.
Although many responses were simply negative, Cichy's article did generate a few positive responses. A former member of the AK who had hidden his Jewish identity, an engineer by the name of Ryszard Grabowski, responded with his own experience. Confronted by a pistol-toting drunk AK sergeant, declared his intention to complete a job started by the Germans. Grabowski was forced to flee into near by ruins to avoid being shot.
Clearly, under the umbrella of the AK gathered a variety of political forces from the democratic to the radical right and anti-Semitic. Furthermore, the civilian leaders of the underground threatened those engaged in blackmail, denouncing Jews to the Germans or Polish police, or participation in the murder of Jews with the death penalty. Given the conditions of the occupation and war, however, civilian leaders to control every group. The lower ranks of regular AK troops proved more difficult. According to Teresa Prekerowa, there were as many as twenty to thirty instances where AK soldiers executed Jews during the 1944 uprising.
Marek Edelman, the last survivor of the 1943 Ghetto-Uprising leadership, explained the struggle to have begun within the Communist Peoples Army (AL). Recalling those days, Edelman said "The AK wanted me shot." They claimed that he had falsified identification and was a Jewish spy. They then placed him under lock and key. Later, the AK threatened to shoot him because "the Jews are evil." Similarly, the police in the old part of the city were generally militant anti-Semites.
Even so, Jewish members of the AK seemed reluctant to deal with the issue. Ignatz Bubis, chair of the Central Council of the Jews in Germany, stated that "They would have endangered the AK's image [had they spoken out]" during an interview with Wladislaw Bartoszewski, Poland's current ambassador to Vienna. Yet it is hard to deny that the AK refused to provide Jews with weapons until after all Poles had been well equipped while regularly placing Jews in dangerous positions. Grabowski's own group leader encouraged three young Jews to demonstrate that they were not cowards. "Your life is of little value so have no fear of death. Thanks to us you have survived thus far..."
Marek Edelman...like hundreds of other Jews, sought refuge in the basements of Warsaw and waited for the arrival of the Red Army. Edelman greeted the Red Army as his liberator. Many Poles, however, viewed the arrival of the Red Army as the replacement of one occupying power by another.
With the inclusion of Poland in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations did not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined with anti-Communism. Following the rejection of the "Jewish commune" (whose leaders' names, i.e., Berman or Lampe, were clearly not Polish), some former members of the AK (read "Jews") were put on trial as political reactionaries. Anti-Semitism had political legitimacy and it became dangerous to be a Jew in Poland.
Poles, who had provided sanctuary for Jews, were reluctant to bring their acts to the attention of the public. Jews who survived because of either their "good looks" or a false identify card concealed their true identify even after the end of the Second World War. Tragically, those who suffered the most during the war also suffered the most after the war...
Ignatz Bubis reported of a former tailor from Deblin whose mother and sister were murdered shortly after their return in early 1945. Another survivor reported the fate of Jozef Wajsblum and Mendel Brit, both having been released from Auschwitz, were shot on March 19, 1945, in their homes in Wachock (near Kielce). Chaim Binsztok, a survivor from the Starachowicy camp, suffered the same fate at Wachock's train station.
Many Jews were beaten and sometimes killed on the train during their repatriation. In a particular case on January 8, 1946, Jews being repatriated were traveling from Lemberg to Krakow. The train director, a Jewish lawyer, was thrown off the train while numerous other Jews were beaten into unconsciousness and robbed.
The high point of anti-Semitic activity came on July 4, 1946, during a pogrom in Kielce. Forty-two people, including a number of women and children, were murdered by the local police (Miliz) and an local Poles. Another 100 Jews were wounded as rocks, iron rods, and fists were used in the attack. Near Kielce approximately thirty Jews were killed while riding the train. Only in the fall of 1946 did anti-Semitic outbursts subside, but not before 1500 to 2000 Jews had been killed.
Today, these activities are denounced as the result of reactionary elements of the AK or provoked by Soviet authorities. The problem, however, remains: Why did thousands take part in the massacre of Polish Jews?
Among a small circle of Polish academicians the number of victims is still being debated. The general public, however, shows little interest in either the numbers or the debate. What is emerging, nevertheless, is a self-critical reflexion previously impossible in a postwar Poland where the AK had been denounced. The natural instinct, according the Adam Michnik, is to call for "self-defense through self-idealization." Thus, Polish society seeks to protect itself through simply self-denial.
The demythologization process in Poland will not come easily. The questions raised about the Polish-Jewish relations during the Second World War opens the door to questions about contemporary anti-Semitism in Poland. The discussion is becoming increasingly virulent since the exodus of some 20,000 Polish-Jews in 1968-1969
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 14:55:30 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Source of Quote on Wall at Holocaust Museum
From: P.Lindley@ukc.ac.uk
Jonathan Robbins wrote; <jonathan@unix1.circ.gwu.edu>
>
> You who live safe
> In your warm houses
> You who find, returning in the evening,
> Hot food and friendly faces:
> Consider if this is a man
> Who works in the mud
> Who does not know peace
> Who fights for a scrap of bread
> Who dies because of a yes or a no.
> Consider if this is a woman,
> Without hair and without name
> With no more strength to remember,
> Her eyes empty and her womb cold
> Like a frog in winter.
> Meditate that this came about:
> I commend these words to you.
> Carve them in your hearts
> At home, in the street,
> Going to bed, rising:
> Repeat them to your children,
> Or may your house fall apart,
> May illness impede you,
> May your children turn their faces from you.
>
> Again, I believe that that was from Wiesel's _Night_, and it seems to be
> close in content to the quotation at the museum.
The above is a poem of Primo Levis called 'If this is a man' and is from his book about his time in Auschwitz. I don't have the publication details to hand but the book has been published under a number of different titles. I bought a copy recently in the UK called 'If this is a man' and have an old copy bought in the USA called 'Survival in Auschwitz'.
Hope this helps
Peter Lindley
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 14:56:31 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: lin collette <BI599128@BROWNVM.BITNET> Subject: proper name of the Israeli Supreme Court???
I'm hoping someone out there knows the answer to this--it's a holiday weekend and I don't have access to a library or to reference services.
I need to know the proper name of the Israeli Supreme Court which passed sentence on John Demjanjuk (sp?). All the news reports I've ever seen call Israel's highest court the Supreme Court, but I would like to be sure of this as my editor is questioning the terminology. I haven't yet been able to find the proper name through electronic means (i.e. searching HOLOCAUS' archives because, again, it's a holiday weekend and access to printed copies are limited or nonexistent). I've only just been made aware of her question.
If someone knows the answer, please contact me via private mail as I am on
digest mode. I need to know by Wednesday, September 7.
thanks!
lin collette
bi599128@brownvm.brown.edu
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 15:05:16 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Paul Lawrence Rose <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> Subject: Re: Queries on Budapest and Auschwitz
In-Reply-To: U15607 AT UICVM.BITNET -- Sun, 4 Sep 1994 19:59:38 CDT
Yes- Raphael Patai's two books (the second is usually titled JOURNEYMAN IN JERUSALEM) are a wonderful - if prolix - description of Jewish life in Hungary and Palestine. Patai, who obtained the first doctorate granted by the Hebrew Uni versity, is an amazingly prolific and erudite writer even in his late 80's. His most recent work on Jewish alchemists has just been published by Princeton UP. PLRose, Penn State U.
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 15:06:18 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Paul Lawrence Rose <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> Subject: Re: Auschwitz or Oswiecim
In-Reply-To: U15607 AT UICVM.BITNET -- Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:17:45 CDT
As a footnote to E Epstein's posting on the history of the town of Auschwitz, I recall that the French prince Henri de Valois (I think), when escaping from his appointment as king of Poland, stopped overnight in Auschwitz on his way back to France. I must say that reading this harmless statement in a book published in the 1930's gives one a weird feeling. (Was it also Henri who bore the tittle of "Grand Duke of Auschwitz" or perhaps it was one of the Hapsburg princes ?) P.L. Rose, Penn State U (PLR2@psuvm) From holoweb@h-net.msu.edu Thu Aug 22 14:21:35 1996 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:20:23 -0400 (EDT) From: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> To: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> Subject: log 9409b
>From LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU Mon Aug 12 22:21:29 1996 Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (UICVM-ETH1.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.2.150]) by h-net.msu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA23250 for <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:54:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199608121854.OAA23250@h-net.msu.edu> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
with BSMTP id 1733; Mon, 12 Aug 96 13:53:44 CDT Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6048; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:33 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UICVM (1.8b)" <LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU> Subject: File: "HOLOCAUS LOG9409B" To: H-NET Help <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 09:45:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Position Announcement
From: "Johnson, Chris" <cjohnson@ushmm.org>
Attached is a recent posting for a position in the
Department of Oral History in the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Museum. Please refer qualified
candidates to the attention of Cheri Day,
Department of Personnel, U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum, 100 Raoul Wallenberg Place, SW,
Washington, DC 20024.
With thanks,
Chris Johnson
Assistant to Dr. Joan Ringelheim
Department of Oral History
<cjohnson@ushmm.org>
Job Announcement
Program Coordinator
Department of Oral History
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
Opening Date: September 1, 1994
Closing Date: October 15, 1994
Incumbent will assist in day to day management of the Oral History Department and will oversee the Oral History Intern and Volunteer Programs. Incumbent will be responsible for the supervision of the pre-screening of potential interviewees; management of interviewee database; coordination of the audiointerview project; supervision of research for interviews; and meeting, and on occasion, interviewing Holocaust survivors and witnesses. In cooperation with the archivist for the Department of Film & Video and the Department of Oral History, the incumbent is also responsible for the overall accessibility of interview information including writing of USHMM interview summaries and supervising the checking of manuscripts.
Qualified candidates will have superior organizational skills, knowledge of the history of the Holocaust, excellent communication skills and knowledge of computers and software. Interview experience and foreign languages are desirable. Candidate must have a BA with a MA preferred.
Salary Range: GS-7 Equivalent ($23,678)
Resumes should be submitted to the attention of the Office of Personnel, U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, 100 Raoul Wallenberg Place, S.W., Washington, DC 20024. The USHMM is an equal opportunity employer.
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:50:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Shoah and Holocaust
From: Didier Pollefeyt <Jo.DeTavernier@theo.kuleuven.ac.be>
In the discussion on the terminology 'Holocaust' - 'Shoah' I would like to
add
two elements.
This does not mean that the term 'Holocaust' is much better. It only shows
that there is no ideal term for this event. Perhaps, it is not so bad that
we can
not find one word to express this event.
Didier Pollefeyt. Catholic University Louvain. Department of Moral Theology. Belgium.
P.S.: I thank everyone for the interesting remarks on my question concerning 'Auschwitz-Oswiecim'.
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:50:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Three Books on Children in the Holocaust
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
This article appeared in the German weekly Die Zeit not that long ago. I have tried to translate enough of it in order to give everyone a feeling for the nature of the work. Everyone will notice that these works appeared origninally in English. These reviews underscore continued German interest (on the public level) in the Holocaust.
The lack of literary quality is the fault of the translator:
Elke Schulbert, "Gibt es dort auch Spielplaetze?", Die Zeit Nr. 13, 1 April 1994.
Schulbert's articles reflects upon three works dealing with the subject of children and the Holocaust:
George Eisen, Spielen im Schatten des Todes. Kinder im Holocaust; aus dem Amerikanischen von Friedrich Griese (Muenchen: Piper Verlag, 1993), 221 S., 36,- DM.
Adina Blady Szwajgier, Die Erinnerung verlaesst mich nie. Das Kinderkrankenhaus im Warschauer Ghetto und der juedische Widerstand; aus dem Englischen von Joachim Rehork (Muenchen/Leipzig: List Verlag, 1993), 216 S., 39,80DM.
Deborah Dwork, Kinder mit dem gelben Stern. Europa 1933-1945; aus dem Englischen von Gabriele Krueger-Wirrer (Muenchen: C.H. Beck Verlag, 1994), 390 S., 58,- DM.
Schubert begins with the presumption that despite the deaths of more than one million children in either the Nazi gas chambers or in one of the many ghettos were food, medicine, and doctors were in short supply. More than any other group, children were generally incapable of heavy or specializewd labor and, thus, simpled out for the gas chambers or medical experiments -- thinking only of Dr. Mengele's personal interest in twins. Those few children who survived the camps did so by lying about their age or their origins.
While it is difficult to develop a picture of their everyday life, children in the ghettos and the camps did play. George Eisen's Spielen im Schatten des Todes. Kinder im Holocaust is replete with references to dairies, Nazi documents, children's drawings, and photographs of preciously this ironic side of survival. Similar to their elder counterparts, children devised their own means of outwitting their oppressors by creating toys, dreaming of better times, and hiding. However, Nazi oppression forced an early maturity on these same children. Young children realized that an untimely sound could mean death or deportation for themselves and those around them. Yet children's games included more than that. They included games reflecting everyday life in the ghetto, deportation, and knowledge of the gas chambers. Quoting a nine-year old girl aboard a transport on its way to Majdanek, "Papa, will there be schools and playgrounds there too? Will there be many children there?", the power of Eisen's presentation is self-evident.
Adina Blady Szwajgier's Die Erinnerung verl,amich nie. Das Kinderkranenhaus im Warschauer Ghetto und der juedische Widerstand represents her memories as a young doctor in the Warsaw ghetto. Before the liquidation of the ghetto in 1943, she acted as an "Aryan" curier. The first portion of her memoire relates daily activities in the childrens hospital. Contrary to a more normal environment where soctors sought to combat disease and deal with other medical problems, these doctors struggled to ease to passage to death or share a kind word. After the end of the war, Szwajger returned to Warsaw and the area in search of the children she tried to help. Of the few she found, none were either normal or healthy, just alive. She passed away in February 1994.
Deborah Dwork's Kinder mit dem gelben Stern. Europa 1933-1945 approaches the subject of children and the Holocaust from a different angle. Herself a professor at the Child Study Center at Yale University, Dwork reseached the general conditions of life of Jewish children from 1933-1945. Based upon a wealth of archival materials, diaries, and especially interviews -- although she was well aware of the difficulties of oral history collected from interviews with fifty and sixty year odls recounting their youths for the first time -- concluded that their experienced varied with their respective age, sex, and education. One individual recalled "I remember quite well the day when we were no longer allowed to attend school...What had I done wrong?"
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:40:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Speer and the camps
From: THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU
F Y I To Colleagues Out There: The following article may be helpful re:
Speer
and the camps:
E.Goldhagen, "Albert Speer, Himmler, and the Secrecy of the Final
Solution." MIDSTREAM 17/8 [Oct 71]: 43-50.
I've not yet seen this, so I cannot comment on it relevance.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'm forwarding this from WWII-L; there has been a flurry of postings
recently
on the thread of Speer and his possible complicity in the Final Solution.
From: paulsson@vax.ox.ac.uk
Hirsch's article is good, but contains nothing not already known to specialists in the field. Also it makes - quite effectively - the case for the prosecution.
In general, I feel that it is more important for people to be confronted with views that make them uncomfortable than to be massaged by views that reinforce their existing opinions. In Poland, people have been hearing for 50 years about the heroism of the AK and of the Polish Righteous Gentiles; therefore it is timely and necessary for articles like Hirsch's or Michal Cichy's to appear there, where they challenge the reigning orthodoxy.
I am concerned, however, that in a Western context - where the heroic deeds of the AK and the Righteous Gentiles are little known and less appreciated, that her article has exactly the opposite effect; that is, of reinforcing the reigning orthodoxy which views Poland exclusively as a profoundly anti-Semitic country and ranks the Poles as among the perpetrators of the Holocaust. Rafael Scharf, an acerbic critic of the Poles, nevertheless said: 'There are dimwits, cranks and bigots among all nations, sadly also among us, the Jews. People who look at Poland and see always anti-Semitism and only antiSemitism, or who believe that the camps were in Poland for reasons that had to do with Polish attitudes ... to such people you have nothing to say [he was speaking to a group of Polish historians] and I quite understand.' [I quote from memory and I have it somewhat garbled. Source: A. Polonsky, My Brother's Keeper].
All sorts of things happened in wartime Poland, some good, some bad. My own research is trying to put some of this on a quantitative basis, so that we can have some impression of, say, how many blackmailers there were, how many extremists in the NSZ or the right wing of the AK, how many people were involved in post-war murders and massacres of Jews, versus how many people were involved in helping Jews in one way or another.
So far, the picture that I have is this: as in all occupied countries, there were a small number of people who were *actively* anti-Jewish, a small number who were *actively* pro-Jewish, and the great majority did nothing one way or the other. The exact proportions vary, but the same pattern is seen everywhere.
I have studied the City of Warsaw in some detail; the picture that emerges is roughly as follows:
The number of Jews in hiding after the destruction of the ghetto was about 25,000. This is, by the way, a very large number. Of these, some 3,000 surrendered voluntarily on the promise of foreign passports and visas in the infamous 'Hotel Polski' episode; 15-20,000 were still alive and in Warsaw at the outbreak of the 1944 uprising. About 3,000 died in the Uprising (a few dozen as a result of the atrocities documented by Cichy, the rest as a result of military action), and the rest were herded out of the city after the suppression of the uprising, through the transit camp in Pruszkow, to German labor or concentration camps, forced labor in Germany, or to other parts of Poland. In the process they lost their cover, and large numbers died - I'm still not sure how many. Estimates of the ultimate survivors range from 'a few thousand' to 10,000.
The interesting point, though, is that during the 15 months separating the two uprisings, the losses, apart from the Hotel Polski, were 3,000-10,000 out of 22,000. This includes people who left the city. Compare this with the Netherlands, where 20-25,000 people are estimated to have gone into hiding, of whom 10-15,000 are estimated to have survived: the attrition was therefore 5,000- 15,000, probably greater than in Warsaw. Another indication: I have a list of 79 people who were receiving money from Zegota in December 1943, drawn from the records of one of its cells. Of the 79, 73 also received money in May, 1944. This again points to a relatively low rate of attrition, though the number of cases is too small to allow firm conclusions.
On the other hand, all survivors, almost without exception, report encounters with blackmailers. From the sketchy information we have about the blackmailers, it would seem that each of them might have had 5-10 'customers', which would point to 2,500-5,000 blackmailers. Added to a few hundred Gestapo agents and informers, and the activities of part of the 'Blue Police', this would easily account for the attrition that was observed.
Conclusion 1: the actively anti-Jewish element in Warsaw numbered a few thousand people, almost certainly not as many as 10,000, therefore about 1% of the population (roughly 1 million) or less.
On the other hand, the number of people involved in helping Jews was estimated by Ringelblum as 40-60,000. Considering that Ringelblum considerably underestimated the number of Jews in hiding, the actual number was probably somewhat higher - perhaps 6% or 7% of the population.
Conclusion 2: the number of people actively involved in helping Jews was several times larger than the number of people acting against them, and comprised, considering the circumstances, quite an impressive proportion of the population.
Conclusion 3: Upwards of 90% of the population remained passive.
Many people in this 'silent majority' were indifferent; many were anti-Semitic, but were restrained by anti-German feelings or ethical considerations from actually betraying Jews. Many were sympathetic but lacked the courage (or the means) to help. The exact proportions are impossible to establish. The general attitude, as perceived by most survivors, was hostile; such perceptions are often wrong (compare white perceptions of crime in black ghettos), but certainly the perception was not entirely unfounded. MUTUAL stereotypes are involved. The perception, right or wrong, had a negative effect on the morale of the Jews in hiding which, among other things, was one of the forces driving Jews to surrender at the Hotel Polski or in some cases return to the Ghetto. To the extent that they contributed to the atmosphere of terror by means of anti-Semitic remarks, articles in the underground press, etc., the anti-Semites have blood on their hands, even if they did not personally kill anyone or wish anyone's death. Conversely, people who contributed positively to people's morale by means of encouraging looks, gestures or small deeds - and most memoirs report such people, too - helped save lives, even if they don't qualify as Righteous Gentiles.
Final conclusion: the situation was exceedingly complex, and easy generalizations ought to be avoided. Articles like Hirsch's are valuable, but present only one side of the picture. If you don't know the other side, you should make an effort to get to know it, e.g. by reading Bartoszewski and Lewin's Righteous Among Nations. If you're Polish, don't be complacent. If you're Jewish, don't be numbered among the 'dimwits, cranks and bigots'.
Steve Paulsson, Oxford
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:15:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Holocaust Questions and Answers prepared by the Simon Wiesenthal
Center
From: SBRANDON@alex.stkate.edu
Note: This response is in relation to a posting dated July 19, 1994. Sorry for the delay in responding. Thanks for the excellent compendium.
I am sending the following message for my husband, Paul Slaton.
Re: Holocaust Questions and Answers. It is an excellent compendium which I shall both save and pass on. I have two comments:
Item 3. The list does not include the mentally ill, "cripples," and chronically ill.
Item 5. The figure for Austria, 27% or 50,000, assumes a pre-war figure of 185,000 Jews in Austria. I remember reading that of Vienna's population of 2 million, 10% was Jewish (plus smaller communities). Also 27% murdered might suggest that 73% were spared by the Nazis. But that figure would include those (including myself) who managed to get out, those who were in hiding and those who somehow survived the camps. Paul Slaton
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:50:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: 50 years ago today
From: ANTHONYA@VM.USC.EDU
Early morning September 6, 1944 a train reached Auschwitz. It had left three days earlier from Westerbork, the Dutch transit camp on the German border. This was the 64th (and final) train to bring Dutch Jews from Westerbork to Auschwitz, On this final transport were 1019 people: 498 men, 442 women, and 79 children. In this group of people were Otto Frank, his wife, and two daughters; on August 4th they (along with four other Jews) had been arrested at their hiding place on the Prinsengracht in Amsterdam. Once in Auschwitz, all transportees were subjected to "Selektion" on the railroad platform. 258 men and 212 women were admitted to Auschwitz-Birkenau; the remaining people (including all of the children) were sent to the gas chambers. Otto Frank's younger daughter, Anne, looking somewhat older than her 15 years, was admitted as an adult. Hermann van Pels ("Mr. Van Daan" in Anne's diary) was among those who were gassed, the first one in their group to die.
Anthony Anderson
Government Documents Department
Doheny Memorial Library
University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:50:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Anti-Semitism and the Polish Home Army (AK)
From: Michael Robin <mrobin@igc.apc.org>
Steve Paulsson wrote on Sept 8, 1994:
>All sorts of things happened in wartime Poland, some good, some >bad. My own research is trying to put some of this on a >quantitative basis, so that we can have some impression of, say, >how many blackmailers there were, how many extremists in the NSZ >or the right wing of the AK, how many people were involved in >post-war murders and massacres of Jews, versus how many people >were involved in helping Jews in one way or another.
I first want to say that I found his comments very interesting and apprectiate his attempt to capture a complex situation.
The above excerpt refer to something I believe needs more explaining and telling to more people. It is the comment about "post-war murders and massacres of Jew"... Recently, I read with great interest on this list the comments about what happened to Gay people after the camps were "liberated". It is a history that is not taught, not easily accessible.
The actions and events following the war -- treatment not just of perpetrators, but of people in the camps is equally important for people to know. How we as a society, as a community face the aftermath of autrociteis tells us perhaps as much as the original inhumanity itself.
I guess my question to the List is a recommendation of books and to begin a discussion on the events after the War ended.
Peace
Michael
mrobin@igc.apc.org
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:30:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Three Books on Children in the Holocaust
From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
A minor correction: Adina Szwajger died on 18 February 1993.
Gaston L. Schmir
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:18:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: New H-NET list in world history H-WORLD
H-WORLD WELCOMES SUBSCRIBERS
H-World is a new H-Net list devoted to the discussion of world history.
H-World emphasizes both the teaching of world history and current research in the field. We anticipate that in the area of world history, discussions of teaching and research will be mutually informing. In terms of teaching, the primary focus is on the undergraduate level, but we also welcome discussion of teaching world history in both the K-12 curriculum and in graduate programs.
H-World is co-moderated by Professor Daniel A. Segal of Pitzer College of the Claremont Colleges (dsegal@bernard.pitzer.edu) and Professor Patrick Manning of Northeastern University (pmanning@neu.edu), and it has an editorial board broadly representative of the state of the discipline.
To subscribe send the following 1-line email message to LISTSERV@MSU.EDU
SUBSCRIBE H-world Firstname Surname, Yourschool For example:
subscribe H-World Jennifer Green, North State U. ==note that H-WORLD is based at MSU = Michigan State U. ===
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:43:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus Subscriber?
Arthur Butz, author of the HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, wants to subscribe
Holocaus. I'm opposed to it. As I see it, debating Holocaus deniers is not
part
of the mission of the Holocaust List. What do other subscribers think?
Jim Mott
Holocaus List
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:03:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Queries on Budapest and Auschwitz
From: Hank.Greenspan@um.cc.umich.edu
Sid Bolkosky will proabably answer this himself, but a good number of the survivors in this area whom we have both interviewed, and whose videotaped testimonies are in the U-M Dearborn archive, fit this request. Some of the best known memoirs, of course--Wiesel's _Night_, Isabella Leitner's two (now one) book, also do.
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:33:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus Subscriber [Part 1]
Just as I thought - the response was overwhelming!!
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
>Arthur Butz, author of the HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, wants to
>subscribe Holocaus. I'm opposed to it. As I see it, debating Holocaus
deniers
>is not part of the mission of the Holocaust List. What do other
subscribers think?
>
>Jim Mott
>Holocaus List
I agree somewhat, but I think it is also important that we get oppositional views on the list, even if just to practice our skills on proving them false.
-Rica
From: Eva.U.Grudin@williams.edu (Eva Grudin)
I should think it would make your task of censoring inflammatory submissions
nearly impossible if you started admitting Holocaust deniers to this Listserv. I'm much opposed on moral grounds as well.
Eva Ungar Grudin
Williams College
Williamstown, MA 01267
From: THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU
I would say not, unless he has changed his mind (or is interested in doing so). If he subscribes, all the other famous[?] deniers would demand a subscription. I know this is a ticklish problem, but if the list becomes cluttered with flammenfesting it could die.
My first thought: interesting question.
My second thought: tough question.
My initial gut reaction: Sure! Why not? Let's hear what the guy has to
say.
Let's see how he responds when faced with truly knowledgeable people.
My later reaction is more complex: I find this list very helpful and informative,
though the level of expertise is certainly beyond my own. Part of
what I take to be the strength of the list is a shared respect for the views
and
perspectives of the list's participants. "Flame wars" are avoided because,
as
I see it, differences are seen as the result of differing opinions and conclusions
rather than seen as evidence of the baseness and vileness of the
one
stating their view. Were Mr. Butz on the list, I worry that that ephemeral
spirit may be lost on the list. Will we start watching what we say,
wondering
how it might be used out of context by one with a particular ax to grind,
etc.
Also, I began to wonder if his participation on the list would give him
access
to other audiences to spread (the verb shows my bias; why didn't I say
"share") his particular views.
Bottom line, though it opens us up to charges of "censorship," "what are you
afraid of" and "see, they won't even debate us," to his choir of believers,
I
think he should not be a part of the list. This flies in the face of every
civil libertarian bone of my body, but I don't think individuals have a
"right" to be on an internet list.
Ron Nutter
Alderson-Broaddus College
Philippi, WV
nutter@ab.wvnet.edu
From: "Sidney Bolkosky" <SBOLKOSK@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu>
Jim, Butz has made a similar request to the Anti-Semitism network
and my reaction is the same here as it was there--more intense,
really. I would categorically oppose his admission to the list. He
remains, in my mind, an advocate of genocide and antisemitism and,
despite some opposition from civil libertarians, ought not be given
any serious or respectable forum. Absolutely not.
Sid Bolkosky
UM-Dearborn>
I think you are absolutely correct in opposing Butz' subscription.
This is a holocaust discussion group, not a holocaust denial discussion
group.
Its just not the proper forum for deniers. Free speech is not an issue
here.
they can say what they want in their own forum. Here we study the realities
with which we are all too familiar. Bringing those guys into this group is
like bringing in people who deny the existence of train hobbyists into a
train hobbyists discussion group. It will just create a lot of nonsense and
eventually the train hobbyists will discuss their hobby elsewhere.
There are a few news groups which feature holocaust denial which such
individuals can join: alt.revisionism and alt.skinheads. There are plenty
of
interested parties with regard to the exoneration of Hitler and the
rejuvenation of National Socialism. Let Butz go there or create his own
forum
from his own resources rather than waste ours.
David L. McBride
What harm can he do? If you don't want to read his messages, just skip them. I myself have no plans to debate Butz, but his messages can't do any harm when directed to members of this list, of all people.
Daniel Schaffer
Professor of Law Telephone: 617-373-3345
School of Law Fax: 617-373-8793
Northeastern Univ. dcs@slaw.neu.edu
400 Huntington Ave
Boston MA 02115
From: "Kenneth.Waltzer" <21409MGR@msu.edu>
I strongly agree that this network should not sanction debating Holocaust deniers and that it/we should establish some guidelines therefore concerning access to the network. Arthur Butz, Bradley Smith, et. al. should establish their own Denial Network.
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
A really thorny moral issue. Putting Butz on would not so much introduce issues of Holocaust denial into the discussion (members of the list could ignore his postings) but rather like introducing a virus into the system and potentially spoiling the free and candid discussions we conduct. What we say might be taken out of context, quoted by our names and used to further his cause. On the other hand, would there be any likelihood of his actually LEARNING something? Probably not. I think on reflection that your decision probably makes the most sense although no doubt you will hear a variety of different opinions.
Froma Zeitlin
fiz@pucc.princeton.edu
From: CHIEFUSAF@aol.com
I fully agree that a Holocaust Denier does not belong on the Holocaust List!
Steve Nemerow, CMSgt, USAF
CHIEFUSAF@aol.com
Your point is well taken, but what your are opening the door to is some sort of "evaluation" as to whether or not a potenial subscriber is a "denier" or not. Perhaps next time we'll be looking at cv's, past publications, newspaper articles, or simply passing along university gossip. No, let's not allow censorship to be our tool to dealing with individuals whose positions we find repugnant. Let's have confidence that we can deal with Butz or anyone else -- while insisting that he abide by the same rules as everyone else.
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:43:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus subscriber [Part 2]
>Arthur Butz, author of the HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, wants to
>subscribe Holocaus. I'm opposed to it. As I see it, debating Holocaus
deniers
>is not part of the mission of the Holocaust List. What do other
subscribers think?
>
>Jim Mott
>Holocaus List
>
Dear Jim,
I urge you not to allow Butz to subscribe. I agree with you
wholeheartedly. I remember being involved in a Holocaust bulletin
board on Prodigy a couple of years ago. In short over it was turned
into a soapbox for the deniers. All discussion became monopolized by
agruments for and against deniers and serious members eventually
dropped out.
I have enjoyed this group a great deal and have gained much useful
information. I would hate to see it destroyed by denier agruments.
Thanks, and good luck.
Lary Opitz
From: pock@reed.edu (John C. Pock)
It can't be said any better--it's categorical and to the point!
John C. Pock e-mail: pock@reed.edu Department of Sociology voice mail: (503)771-1112, ext.7460 Reed College fax: (503) 777-7776 or (503)
777-7769
3203 S.E. Woodstock Blvd.
Portland, OR 97202-8199
From: woldson@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (William Oldson)
I AGREE VERY STRONGLY!
William Oldson
Department of History R-126
Florida State University
Tallahassee, FL 32306-2029
From: mork@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gordon Mork)
Mr. Butz deserves to be shunned, but no doubt others of his ilk could "sneak" onto the list. Where do we draw the line? Better to let him subscribe, but excercise editorial control thru the moderator on what is posted (I assume that's done in any case). Gordon R. Mork, Purdue.
From: Murray Kahl <mkahl@gate.net>
I think the good Professor should be first castrated (blee beitzim), then forced to clean the bathrooms at Yad Vashem for at least 10 years and on to something equally as distasteful. If he were castrated, he might then join the Pope's famed list of castrati and sing his song elsewhere. Strugnal and other academics might assist him when sober.
From: "LARRY NELSON, PLU INSTITUTIONAL RESEARCH" <NELSON_L@SALT.PLU.EDU>
Hi Jim,
Thanks for asking for input on this provocative question. While I find holocaust deniers' positions abhorrent, I am very reticent to pre-censor who may belong to any e-mail list on the basis of their known beliefs. I would be inclined to allow him to sign up just like any other subscriber. Who knows, he might learn something?
Should he be allowed to join the list and his postings were later to prove to be disruptive to the smooth functioning of the list, I would then unsubscribe him on the basis of his *disruption-causing behavior* rather than on the basis of his unpopular beliefs. If his list usage is not disruptive, I would continue to allow him the privilege of membership. There are deniers in the world, and we need to know about them and how to deal with them despite how abhorrent we may find it.
Thanks for taking time to consider my point of view. I am primarily a "lurker" on the list rather than a contributor. But I have a keen interest in holocause historical issues and the need for new generations to be fully aware of what happened. I appreciate the availability of the list.
Best wishes.
Larry
* * * * | Hauge Admininstration Building 100
* * * * | Tacoma, Washington 98447
* ******* *** |
| Telephone: (206) 535-7444
"Quality Education in | E-Mail: NELSON_L@SALT.PLU.EDU
a Christian Context" | FAX: (206) 535-8320
From: Mary Todd <U51573@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Politely say no.
Mary Todd, UIC
From: NATHALIE RACHLIN <nrachlin@Scripps.claremont.edu>
Jim,
I agree with you: debating people like Butz is just a waste of time.
Nathalie Rachlin
Scripps College
1030 Columbia Avenue
Claremont, CA 91711
nrachlin@scripps.claremont.edu
(909) 621-8555 x4260
From: nharrow@acs.bu.edu
I m opposed too. seems ;like it opens p the list for harassment...
Nancy Harrowitz
Boston University
From: "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Hello, Jim!
This is a free country, and I don't see how you can deny anyone access to the list if he is serious about it. I would certainly question his motives and if you think that he his motives are compatible with the membership on this list, then yes. If not, then you can make the decision to keep him off. It has been very clearly stated what the mission and scope of this list is, and if Mr. Butz is willing to conform to the standards of this fine list, then so be it. If not, then no.
My two cents' worth anyway.
Terry
From: David Dickerson <ddickerson@igc.apc.org>
TOPIC: Should Arthur Butz be a HOLOCAUS Subscriber?
Dear Jim,
I vehemently oppose allowing Holocaust deniers to subscribe to the HOLOCAUS list, since the reality of the Holocaust is not open for debate.
You might also want to point out to Arthur Butz that he can participate in the UseNet group <alt.revisionism>; given the presence of the IHR and CODOH there, however, he's probably aware of that conference.
Thank you for your time.
Cordially,
David Dickerson
David Dickerson / / / ddickerson@igc.apc.org
"In a world of absurdity, we must invent reason; we must create beauty out of nothingness." - Elie Wiesel
From: SCHILLING@CC.DENISON.EDU
I would agree with your judgment not to allow Arthur Butz and other deniers to subscribe to the list.
Don Schilling,
Denison University
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:14:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Hungarian Jews
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
There is a foundation of Hungarian Jews, or rather, dedicated to the memory of the Jews of Hungary. It is, I believe, called the Emanuel Foundation. The Memorial FOundation for Jewish Culture [ 15 East 26th Street, NYC NY 10016 ] would have their addess and phone number. As well, the MFJC has funded a number of studies of Hungarian Jewry; ask them for a listing of dissertations, books, etc., that they have supported on the subject of Hungarian Jewry. Finally, the library of the American Jewish Committee [ 165 East 56th Street, NYC NY 10022 ] has very knowledgeable staff, and could provide useful suggestions.
Did you check the yearbooks of the Leo Baeck Institute and that of Yad Vashem, by the way?
Arieh Lebowitz
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:14:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
On Polish Anti-Semitism . . .
Steve Paulsson reminds of the quite legitimate need to avoid sending the wrong signals to a _western audience_ (a concept which I find a bit strange is this setting) about the anti-Semitic side of Polish life. On the other hand, I believe he overstates his case when he claims that the "reigning orthodoxy" would rank the "Poles among the perpetrators of the Holocaust." I feel reasonably comfortable with a modest counter ascertion that the "reigning orthodoxy" -- should there be one -- is much more likely to entirely separately Poles from the Holocaust for reasons he provides in abundance. Within a few distinctly Polish circles, however, there is a great sensitivity to any focus upon the Poles as contributing to (not _collaborating with_) the elimination of Polish Jews. Clearly, the numbers of Poles (either with the AK, the underground, or simply peasants) involved in any aspect of the elimination of the Jews compared with Poland's population would be small. We are, by-and-large, talking more of a moral issue here.
But let's also not lose sight of how difficult and emotional this debate has been. We could make reference to the Cardinal Glemp problems and Auschwitz. But let's look instead to an intellectual and cultural leader of Poland today: Adam Michnik.
Adam Michnik, editor in chief of the Warsaw daily Gazeta Wyborcza, was a leading dissident during the communist regime. This is excerpted from a speech he gave last month, reprinted in the May 30, 1991, edition of the New York Review of Books:
What is anti-Semitism in today's Poland? First of all, it is not unique. Aggressive anti-Semitic slogans can be heard today in Prague and Bratislava, in Russia and the Ukraine, in Hungary and in Romania. All these voices have a double edge. Each is a manifestation not merely of hatred of Jews but simply of a hostility toward the fundamental standards of European democracy. Anti-Semitism has become a code and a common language for people who are dreaming of a nationally pure and politically disciplined state--a state without people who are "different" and without a free opposition.
The explosions of anti-Semitic xenophobia in my country have recently provoked uneasiness and protest on the part of the most respected and distinguished representatives of Polish culture as well as the Catholic Church Episcopate and the president of the Republic. The Episcopate issued a special bishops' letter in which, for the first time in the history of the Catholic church in Poland, anti-Semitism was unequivocally condemned. President Lech Walesa established a special council for Polish-Jewish relations.
Clearly, these acts and initiatives, deserving as they are of support, do not solve the problem. For--I will repeat--the issue at this late date is not Polish-Jewish relations; the issue is the plague of anti-Semitism, which, though it only touches the margins of Polish public life, has, as we know from history, the tendency to spread.
Anti-Semitism is like a malignant virus which first implants itself in a cell in order to poison and kill the entire organism. What characterizes this kind of anti-Semitism is a strange fascination with blood and heredity, a morbid interest in the racial background of grandfathers and great-grandfathers. The attempt is, once again, independently of historical truth and the demands of logic, to divide Polish citizens, or citizens of any country, into the better, the "real" ones, and the worse--those infected by Jewish blood.
That is why the habit of ascribing Jewish forebears to political enemies has become a grotesque and tragic part of the political debate in post-communist countries. One must discuss all this with utter openness and have the courage to call the disease by its proper name. I can assure you that in Poland there are many people who have such courage--there are in fact large numbers of them. I'll say more; these are the people who create the authentic, cultural values of Polish democracy and make up its spiritual core.
Relations between Poles and Jews are still burdened by two stereotypes--one Polish, and the other Jewish. According to the Polish stereotype, there has never been any anti-Semitism in Poland, and the Jews were never so well-off as they were there. In this stereotype, each critical voice condemning anti-Semitism is considered an expression of the anti-Polish conspiracy on the part of international forces who are filled with hatred for Poland. There is also a Jewish stereotype, which says that each Pole imbibes anti-Semitism with his mother's milk; that Poles share the responsibility for the Holocaust; that the only thing worth knowing about Poland is just that--that Poles hate Jews.
The Polish stereotype produces among Jews, even Jews well-disposed toward Poland, an instinctive dislike of Poles. This stereotype makes any calm and clarifying debate on the history of Polish anti-Semitism impossible. On the other hand, the Jewish stereotype immediately arouses a sort of "secondary anti-Semitism" among Poles, because people who are completely free of anti-Semitic phobias feel accused of sins they've never committed. And having been accused of being natural anti-Semites, they feel hurt and perceive ill will on the part of Jews; and such feelings tend to preclude an honest dialogue with Jews about the past and the future.
It isn't easy for me to talk about all this, because my judgment is far from impartial. Because of my own past--as a Pole of Jewish origin, engaged from early youth in the democratic opposition, fighting for the freedom of Poland and of each human being--I have always perceived anti-Semitism as a form of anti-Polonism; and, listening to Jewish accusations of Polish anti-Semitism, I've always felt solidarity with the great part of Polish public opinion that in every historical period was capable of opposing clearly, bravely and unambiguously the successive campaigns of hatred.
Among my friends, one thing was always clear: Anti-Semitism is the name of hatred. But it was also clear to us that the stubborn categorization of Poland as an anti-Semitic nation was used in Europe and America as an alibi for the betrayal of Poland at Yalta. The nation so categorized was seen as unworthy of sympathy, or of help, or of compassion. That is why, for decades, we have stubbornly explained that anti-Semitic pathology doesn't define Poland, just as Le Pen doesn't define France, the John Birch Society doesn't define America, the Black Hundreds don't define Russia, and extreme Israeli chauvinism doesn't define the state of Israel.
Words to remember. I hope, Steven, that this posting will help satisfy at least one the needs you alluded to.
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:19:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need a monologue about the Holocaust
From: KANDRA <SRM1198@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>
I am currently taking an acting class and I have to deliver a monologue next
week. I would like to do one, a contemporary one, on the Holocaust,
preferably
one that isn't just about the Holocaust but her life in general. (If that
didn't come out right, I apologize, but it didn't seem to come out any other
way). Something ala Anne Frank.
Since I do not have much time to prepare the monologue, if people could
email
me the monologues that would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
Rica Mendes
@}-'-,-- If music be the fruit of life,
Let us eat drink and be merry. --'-,-{@
Yerushalayim shel zahav, v'shel n'choshet v'shel or
Halo l'chol shirayich ani kinor
SRM1198@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Rica Mendes, Oberlin College
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:23:56 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus subscriber [part 3]
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
While I am opposed to censorship in all forms, prohibiting the likes of Arthur Butz from contaminating a newsgroup created to be a vehicle for Holocaust education does not constitute censorship.
Nobody is suggesting that his absurd attempt separate his Jewhatred from its historical consequences be censored but, instead, kept out of a newsgroup which exist to educate people on the real history of the Shoah.
The presence of such intellectual vermin would turn all of the discussion into a debate reducing the Holocaust to opinion rather than fact.
I occasionally work as a talk show host, and I have had such a person on my show. But I refuse to have a Holocaust authority on with any Holocaust deniers, as this would legitamize the denier's idiotic and offensive claims.
For exactly the same reason, I would keep such people far from any newsgroup in which participation would help legitamize denial of the Holocaust.
Butz and Zundel want to infiltrate lists that focus on Jewish concerns, the HOLOCAUS- and ANTISEM-lists, in particular . . . for fairly obvious reasons. I will forward several posts on this from the other list that emphasize the problem. Veto this request.
Charles Fishman * Email: Fishman@snyfarva Distinguished Service Professor * * * Voice: (516) 420-2031
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
I am strongly opposed to Butz's inclusion on the list. This scholarly space is valuable and, frankly, precious--to open it to someone like Butz would radically change it (for the worse, I believe). I hope a majority of the list's participants agree with me!
SIncerely,
Nicole J. Cunningham email: nicolejc@csd.uwm.edu Modern Studies voice: 414.223.3070 (h) Dept of English and Comp Lit 414.229.4141 (o)
Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Here's the bottom line: If Butz (or others noted for their "work" as Holocaust deniers) is permitted to join this list, I'm gone. I believe Froma Zeitlin's image is accurate: it would be like "introducing a virus into the system," and we would all be made sick by it. If you doubt this, please note how Butz's request to join ANTISEM and HOLOCAUS have already subverted the focus, purpose, and, yes, even the *tone* of these lists.
Let Dershowitz debate Butz, and let us get on with our discussion of a subject whose seriousness, importance, and reality we do not need to question.
Charles Fishman * Email: Fishman@snyfarva Distinguished Service Professor * * * Voice: (516) 420-2031
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
I fully agree with you. Debate with Holocaust deniers does not belong in this list or for that matter in any list. I salute you for bringing this attempt to poison the intellectual exchange which takes place in this list to the attention of the subscribers.
Louis de Groot
President, Holocaust Center of Northern California
Herb Effron ...for business matters herb@halcyon.com Seagopher, Inc. for personal mail seattle-usa@halcyon.com
>From Dewey A. Browder, Austin Peay State University My first inclination is to allow him to join, but the network members are engaged in serious, scholarly exchanges. We do not need to invite clutter. If we can legally deny his request, I suggest we do so.
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:29:01 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: The Butz Question [x H-Antis]
Arthur Butz wants the subscribe to H-ANTIS (History of Antisemitism as well. Here are some of their responses:
Jim Mott
From: "Richard S. Levy" <U56341@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Butz question
To: Multiple recipients of list H-ANTIS <H-ANTIS@UICVM.BITNET>
8 views on Butz' membership application:
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> In re: Butz.
No. Simple as that.
From: Rebecca N Hill <hillx018@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Thank you for sending this message to the list. I agree with you, Butz should not be allowed on the list.
From: Al Lindeman <lindeman@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu>
Good lord. If we let him in, who could we say No to?
My vote: Emphatically no.
Albert S. Lindemann
From: Nick Burnett <burnettnf@CCVAX.CCS.CSUS.EDU>
I don't speak for other members on the list but I think it might be interesting to allow Butz on the list. I'd like to hear how the mind of a bigot works.
Nick Burnett
CSU-Sacramento
From: eytan@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr (Michel Eytan, LILoL)
I am against it too, though I do not know him or his work. Since I can smell out an AntiS-rat miles away, I must say he seems indeed to be one, to consider only the title of his book.
Let us beware of false "liberalism" and let us fight the well-known trotskite technique called "entrism" which attempts to infiltrate enemy organizations in order to explode them from inside.
Z:khor eth `Amalek
--
Michel Eytan, U Strasbourg II eytan@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr
"Je dis ce que je pense et je pense ce que je dis"
From: Devon Miller-Duggan <dmd@brahms.udel.edu> I will not share net-space with Arthur Butz. If, in the end, the list decides to allow him to log on, please remove my name from the list.
Sincerely,
Devon Miller-Duggan
From: Abe Peck <Abraham.Peck@UC.Edu>
Regarding Butz's application for our discussion group, I think it symbolizes a new strategy on his and his colleagues part. They now want to sit down and discuss things in a "collegial manner" with those who seek to expose them for what they are. Butz's German-Canadian ally,Ernst Zundel, has sent a letter asking for a similar opportunity to talk in a "civilized" manner.Let us not be fooled by such an overture--these are the same purveyors of perfidy that they were yesterday. Abraham J. Peck
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake ``````````````````````````````` '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 19:47:21 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu> Subject: Re: Hungarian Jews
In-Reply-To: <9409092215.AA09079@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
There exists (or at least used to) a World Federation of Hungarian Jews. I don't recall the address but it used to be (and still may be) listed in the Manhattan telephone directory.
Gaston L. Schmir
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 20:02:45 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Need Monologue about the Holocaust From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ@PUCC>
I would look at the long poem of Irene Klepfisz called "Basheert." I think I got a copy from Charles Fishman's anthology (which I think is called "Blood to Remember." He's on this list and can be more accurate). It may well be included in her one volume of collected poems. Her father perished as a hero in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising when she was an infant. The poem (much of it a 'prose poem') is very much about then and now.
Kandra,
I would recommend looking at any of the books by Primo Levi, particularly "Survival in Auschwitz" and "The Drowned and the Saved." Also the beginning few chapters of Hedda Margolius Kovaly's "Under a Cruel Star" are particularly well written and moving. Also look at Cynthia Ozick's (Sp?) "The Shawl."
I am sure that you could pull a fascinating monologue out of any of these.
Ben Weber
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 1994 10:19:31 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus subscriber [part 4]
From: wcd@po.CWRU.Edu (William C. Daroff)
I vote no. Holocaust deniers should have no place in any scholarly discussions.
William C. Daroff
Case Western Reserve University
WCD@po.CWRU.Edu
The issue has never been one of free speech. The issue is whether it's right to give Holocaust deniers a free platform. Holocaust denial is not a question of entertaining a legitimate alternative viewpoint. True scholarship constantly reviews and revises history and looks at alternative views. But even a cursory review of alt.revisionism would demonstrate the futility of debate. Holocaust denial is not about legitimate historical discussion. In alt.revisionism no amount of evidence presented is sufficient. Holocaust deniers simply ignore any evidence that doesn't suit them. What you get is a constant repartition of stated positions that vary little over time. Frequently responses and challenges are simply ignored by the deniers only to be repeated ad nauseam at a later date. That isn't a critical analysis of history. It is simply the abuse of legitimate forums of academic discussion to promulgate a single line of propaganda.
No amount of evidence or discussion that anyone will present can change the denier's minds, because being open to learning is not their motivation. A significant number of deniers are fully funded individuals with nothing else to do. It would not be long before this list would get filled up with huge amounts of junk like they do periodically on other lists, making any kind of academic debate impossible. And you should remember that many of us on commercial networks have to pay $$$ for connect time.
Should the list on alt.astronomy allow the Flat Earth adherents to fill up connect time with huge amounts of discredited arguments about the flatness of the earth? The same applies to alt.holocaus, except that unlike the flat earther's, Holocaust denial has far more serious repercussions.
Holocaust deniers have a number of other forums on the internet to discuss their views. Denial of access to this list will not deny them rights to free speech, only their desire to get a FREE platform.
Steven King
Sydney, Australia
stevenk@tmx.mhs.oz.au
What is to prevent him or other deniers from subscribing under an alias?
Perhaps one should consider letting him subscribe, but not letting him post.
Tough question. The fiber of this list has a moral quality to it that is above most Internet lists (all that I know). Yet censorship is impossible. Glad it is your decision and not mine.
David A. Hirsch
Beckman, Hirsch & Ell Telephone: 319-754-8404 314 North Fourth Fax: 319-754-6302 Burlington, IA 52601 david@iowalaw.com
I agree with you Jim. Butz and his like would jam the bulletin board with their
nonesense. Since they are free to establish their own "revisionist bulletin
board" we are not denying them free expression. Mike Phayer, Marquette
University. P.
P.S. A recent issue of Revisionist History listed a person fom Marquette as
being on their editorial board. The person was once (about 25 years ago) a
teaching assistant at MU; he also holds an M.A. from MU. He has no affiliation
with MU at this time and has not since being a TA. Our legal office has told
the journal to refrain from using our name.
From: Myrna Goodman <mlgoodman@ucdavis.edu>
I vote NO on Butz.
Myrna Goodman
UC Davis
From: Dan Rogers <drogers@jaguar1.usouthal.edu>
To the HOLOCAUS moderators on the matter of Butz:
It's a clash between quality and freedom, and of course there's no set answer when two irreconcilable absolutes confront each other. Quality will suffer if you take this wonderful list and turn it into a debating forum in which deniers are given air time. Freedom will suffer if you substitute your personal judgment about a potential subscriber for the generally open admissions policy you have followed until now.
The list is clearly oriented to scholars, although the admission policies have probably not been strictly enforced. Butz, however, is not a scholar; he is an enemy of scholarship. He uses its trappings to delude the less knowledgeable into the error of Holocaust denial. It is those who know little about the Holocaust that we must keep in mind; those of us who have studied the Holocaust have nothing to fear from anything he can write or any "evidence" he can adduce.
So I would say just this: freedom should not be used as a weapon against quality. You will alienate the vast majority of subscribers and thereby ruin the list if you allow Butz to post.
What if you allow him to lurk, but prohibit him from posting? Again, think what it will do to many on the list who will now know that their names, e-mail addresses, and ideas are going to such people. You will lose many of them forever, and with them the chance to spread knowledge and scholarship about the Holocaust. If you know of any deniers lurking now, I suggest deleting them from the list forthwith.
I recommend not even replying to Butz's request to join. Stonewall it, and thereby deprive someone with malign intentions of another tool in his quest to deceive, lie, distort, and mislead.
Dan Rogers
History Department
University of South Alabama
From: Marvin Prosono <MAP881F@SMSVMA>
A nasty dilemma. It is not "false liberalism" to believe that a debate should include as many and diverse voices as possible. This is a healthy instinct; however, the climate of the Holocaust list would be seriously affected by the inclusion of such a wellknown Holocaust denier. I prize this list for the high tone and scholarly depth of the postings and would not want to see it constantly side-tracked. If there are individuals who wish to communicate with Butz or any other deniers, their e-mail addresses can be obtained. A kind of mini-list might be generated by those individuals, who could devote some time to confronting Butz, et al. without compromising the nature of this list.
Marvin Prosono
Department of Sociology
Southwest Missouri State University
Springfield, MO 65804
From: Weizfeld@er.uqam.ca, Abraham (eibie) <d256344@er.uqam.ca>
The list should not allow Arthur Butz to subscribe because it is obvious that he does not want to discuss or educate but merely wants the subscription to argue that his views are legitimate and should be given access by society at large. The nature of such propaganda is to present a question of credibility between an anglo authority and Jewish critics with the anglo expected to be sympathethic in private, with their own cultural identity.
No way to Arthur Butz, he deserves to comtemplate in isolation.
From
eibie (Abraham) Weizfeldt
<d256344@er.uqam.ca>
Doctoral programme l'universite du Quebec a Montreal
Jewish People's Liberation Organization (JPLO)
From: "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@moose.uvm.edu>
I would like to add my name to the list of those who oppose the admission of known Holocaust deniers to our list. I do not buy the freedom of speech argument. The first amendment, while protecting against censorship, does not guarantee the right to a forum. They have their "Institute for Historical Review." We cannot, and should not deny them that. However, there is no reason why they should have a right to infiltrate a private list.
Benjamin B. Weber
University of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
From: MDESHMUK@gmuvax.gmu.edu
While the vast majority of list subscribers have already voiced their opinion on Butz, I'd like to join by agreeing that his presence on the list would seriously impair its heretofore excellent discussions and information. As moderator, you have every right to reject his request.
Marion Deshmukh
Chair, Department of History
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 993-1253
mdeshmuk@gmuvax.gmu.edu
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 1994 10:28:41 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Need Monologue on the Holocaust
From: FISHMAN@SNYFARVA.BITNET
Thanks to Froma Zeitlin for recommending Irena Klepfisz's "Bashert," a segment of which appears in my anthology, _Blood to Remember: American Poets on the Holocaust_ (Texas Tech University Press, 1991). Additional sections of Klepfisz's poem will be included in _Flames Ascending: World Poets on the Holocaust_. The full text of "Bashert" may be found in Irena Klepfisz, _Keeper of Accounts_ (Persephone Press, 1982). ISBN: 0-930436-17-2. This book is distributed by Sinister Wisdom, PO Box 1023, Rockland, ME 04841.
--Charles Fishman
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake ``````````````````````````````` ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Have a look at Wiesel's play "The Trial of God." Perhaps you can find
something in that. Good luck!
Nancy Stockdale
University of California, Santa Barbara
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 1994 10:32:30 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from legitimate
works in libraries?
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ@PUCC>
Earlier I seem to recall some discussion about call numbers in the library for Holocaust denial stuff (Butz, Rassinier, Faurisson, etc) as being separated from the rest by new call numbers. A quick visit to my own library at Princeton showed me that these works are cheek by jowl with legitimate material. Can someone help with this problem? thanks.
Froma I. Zeitlin
fiz@pucc.princeton.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:35:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Should Arthur Butz be a Holocaus Subscriber [Part 5]
From: Robert Michael <RMICHAEL@umassd.edu>
I respectfully disagree with you and with those opposed to allowing butz on the list for these reasons:
Collegially,
Bob Michael
Professor of European History
UMASS Dartmouth
Co-moderator HOLOCAUS, H-ANTIS, H-W-CIV, soc.cult.jewish.holocaust
rmichael@umassd.edu
From: <crjackson@ucdavis.edu>
I agree; he should not be allowed on the list. Butz would only twist the list to his own nefarious purposes: by tying it up with nit-picking points (all supposedly "proving" that the Holocaust never occured), by spewing his pseudo-scholarship, and perhaps worst of all, by lurking in the background, and pouncing on legitimate queries and doubts as further "proof" of his theories (e.g., the legitimate question raised a few months back as to whether soap was actually manufactured).
I vote no.
Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davisj
From: PHIDAS@runt.dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Arthur Butz should not join our group. As a matter of fact, if he is allowed
to subscribe I would not feel comfortable providing my name, address, etc.
Please keep him out.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal,
phidas@dawsoncollege.qc.ca
From: Nany Charak <uncharak@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
No, absolutely not, Arthur Butz should not be a subscriber to HOLOCAUS. You are absolutely correct, debating the deniers is not the mission of the Holocaust list. Professor Butz can find other venues either on or off the net for perpetrating his vile lies. There is the question that you imply when you state that 'debating Holocaust deniers is not part of the mission of the Holocaus list', of what is the stated mission of the list. What are your criteria for accepting subscribers? Clearly you are not only moderating the debate itself, but who the subscribers are. If would be useful and pertinent to state in a posting what the criteria are. I note that there are a number of admitted survivors on the list. Personal testimonies should be sent to Professor Butz, although it is a good guess that he is incapable of assessing, and accepting the truth. This is not a first amendment question by any means. Professor Butz can find many means in our open society of getting his view out. There might even be a list or group on the net for deniers to talk to each other. There is a larger question here, it is not enough, unfortunately, to bear witness to and document the holocaust and the horrors of 33-45, we must bear witness to, document and fight other genocidal evils in this troubled world.
From: John McLeod <mcleodj@herald.usask.ca>
> debating Holocaus deniers is not
> part
> of the mission of the Holocaust List. What do other subscribers think?
I totally agree.
John McLeod
(John.McLeod@usask.ca)
(Voice phone: 1-306-374-8077)
(Voice phone or fax: 1-306-374-9898)
This is a moderated list, so we should be able to let him subscribe without having to put up with a lot of his nonesense. Of course, that means that Jim Mott will have to deal with the garbage, but Butz should be able to read the list & submit anything that would pass screening if anyone else had sent it.
Sorry Jim, but I do think you should hold your nose & do it.
Stan Nadel
SW MO State
Jim, I agree 100% with you. Debbie Lipstadt has an interesting discussion of this problem in her book on DENIAL. I have for years, in dealing with totalitarian party members, terrorist reps, and now deniers, taken the negative on this, and taken the flack from the "free speech" absolutists. Let him stand on the street corner! When the ground rules for democratic dialogue were first being developed in the 17th century - cf. the Putney Debates, marshals were invented: no one was to be heard who was not there in GOOD FAITH in the discussion, and if they persisted they were thrown out. Butz is NOT in good faith. - Franklin Littell (FHL@VM.TEMPLE.EDU)
From: mskerem@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il (yitzchak kerem)
I think you should ignore him. If he is really serious about subscribing, he
can take the network to court and then it can be a publiuc issue. If he
does
nothing after being rejected from the list, we should remain also silent.
Yitzchak Kerem
Jerusalem
Well, as I see it, there may be more harm in keeping him off the list than
on
it. After all, there is nothing to support his views in any rational
discussion of the Holocaust. He will find no amunition in these
discussions.
Further, barring him may, in fact, be what he is after -- he can tell the
world he was kept off the list because we were afraid and our position weak
From: "David B. Neumann" <DAVIDN%NBSENH@UIC.EDU>
This is a severe problem.
Please distinguish between admitting the individual to the LIST - i.e.
his right to submit his contributions, and his contributions themself.
It is very unfortunate, you as moderator, may allow probably anyone
to submit their contributions, but you as moderator, must review the
contributions to the list. Should the contributions not be in keeping with
the list then you can reject the contribution. Should the contibutor cause
you
excessive effort to review the contibutions then you can reject the
contibutor.
I ask you to distinguish between the contibutor and the contibution. YUou
can reject the contibution on the basis of its content. You can not reject
the contributor based on his/her reputation. You have taken upon yourself
the
cloak of editor. Editors reject contibutions not people.
David Neumann - Emial
David neumann
David Neumann - Email DavidN@enh.nist.gov
--TAA24212.779397421/internet.spss.com--
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:25:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need a monologue about the Holocaust
From: Howard Levin <howlevin@u.washington.edu>
Perhaps you are looking for exerpts from the play "I Never Saw a Butterfly." I assume this was a national production, but I saw it in Seattle as performed by Center Stage of the Jewish Community Center. It is based on the book of the same name and depicts the creative story of children who end up in, I beleive Theresenstadt (sp?). If you need a specific source, I can send you the director's name. The play is a series of monologues as the characters move from ghetto to camp and beyond.
| Howard Levin | | Social Studies Chair | | Overlake School(5-12 Independent) | | 206-462-1227(h) 206-868-1000(w) | | howlevin@u.washington.edu |
|_______________________________________|
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 09:15:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism and the Polish Home Army (AK)
From: JUREK@vaxph.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de
Steve Paulsson rightly observed that the original article of Helga Hirsch in "Die Zeit" presents a case for prosecution, and as such deserves some comments. First, however, I want to comment on David A. Meier's translation of Hirsch's article. While I commend him for the effort and for bringing it to our attention, I must point out that he makes serious errors.
I am particularly worried about additions and embellishments present in his translation, three examples of which (with the original German texts given for comparison) I shall briefly discuss. There are other additions; I can list them on request. I wonder why he felt it necessary to make them.
By the way, Hirsch's article appeared in the June 24 issue of "Die Zeit", and not on June 17.
Also, the sentence: "Ein junger polnischer Journalist hat seine Landsleute an eine Vergangenheit errinert... ," refers not to Helga Hirsch, but to Mr. Cichy. Mr. Meier's translation here is quite wrong.
Here are other examples of the troubling changes of the (German) text in Mr. M.'s translation:
Meier:
Cichy accused the sacrosanct Polish underground and Home Army (AK) of
^^^^^^^^^^
having murdered Jews during the 1944 uprising.
Original:
[Cichy] warf der polnischen Untergrundorganisation im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Heimatarmee -- AK, vor, sie haette waehrend des Warschauer Aufstands 1944 auch Juden ermordet.
Meier:
Poles generally did not collaborate with their Nazi occupiers.
^^^^^^^^^
Original:
Polen blieb ein Land ohne Kollaboration
Meier:
With the inclusion of Poland in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations did not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined with anti-Communism. Following the rejection of the "Jewish commune" (whose leaders' names, i.e., Berman or Lampe, were clearly not Polish), some former members of the AK (read Jews") were put on trial as political reactionaries. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Original:
Weil Polen dem sowjetischen Einflussbereich zugeschlagen wurde, konnte sich das polnisch-juedische Verhaeltnis auch nach dem Krieg nicht normalisieren. Antisemitismus erwob sich -- wie schon in der Vorkriegszeit -- mit Antikommunismus: mit der Ablehnung der "Judenkommune", den von Moskau eingesetzten neuen Machthaber, die so unpolnische Namen tragen wie Berman und Lampe und mit Hilfe von Militaer und Sicherheitsdients nun jene AK-Untergrundkaempfer als "Auswurf der Reaktion" verleumdeten und verurteilten, die fuer die Freiheit des Landes gekaempft haben.
***I shall translate the entire passage. It's necessary because Mr. Meier completely distorts the meaning of the original text:
``Because Poland was included in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations could not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined -- as in the pre-war period -- with anti-Communism: with the rejection of the "Jewish commune", the Moscow-installed new power elite bearing such non-Polish names as Berman or Lampe. This new elite started now, with the help of military and security service, to defame and persecute as "reactionary outcasts" the very AK underground fighters who had fought for the liberty of [their] country.''
Regards,
J. Remigioni
Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 11:30:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: The last word on Arthur Butz
Based on the many responses I've received on the question of whether Arthur Butz should be a member of the Holocaus list, it is evident that most people agree with me that he should not. Therefore, I have decided to reject his application. If he genuinely wants to receive Holocaus postings, I am sure he will find a way. There is no way I can prevent him. However, I will not make it any easier for him by letting him subscribe in his own name or with his own computer account.
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 12:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Films on the Holocaust wanted for film festival
From: Jeffry1963@aol.com
I am in the process of planning a Jewish film festival here in Portland, Maine. We are looking for student and independent films on Jewish related topics including but not limited to current issues in Jewish life, Israel, Holocaust, American-Jewish imigration, etc. If you can be of any assistance, please e-mail me at: Jeffry1963@aol.com.
Thank you for posting this and assisting me in any way possible.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 12:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: The Nazi Crimes in the Zamosc Region
From: Jerzy Halbersztadt <HALBERUW%PLEARN@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
The region of Zamosc (in Polish "Zamojszczyzna") was the place of the exceptional Nazi criminal action. Its name is for Poles equally symbolic as Oradour for French people and Lidice for Czechs.
In November 1942, already after sending of Jews from the Zamosc ghetto to the death camp in Belzec (they formed one third of the town inhabitants before the war), for a personal order of Himmler there started a planned restructuring of the whole region into a model German settlement territory. During 4 months the population of the 116 surrounding villages had been expelled and in their place German colonists from Reich and Eastern Europe (mainly from Bessarabia) had been settled. There were among others also inhabitants of AlsaceLorraine removed from there as an uncertain (undesirable) element. Poles were forced to leave behind all their property and they were removed to the resettlment camp in Zamosc, where the racial tests were made and the families were divided. Persons recognized as being able for Germanization (about 4.5 thousand of young children) were sent to the "Lebensborn" centres in Germany. Able for work in the age of 14-60 were also sent to Germany to the forced work. A part of inhabitants was left over at place, practically as slaves for new masters (colonists). The old, sick persons, disabled and children not qualified for Germanization were in majority expelled to the small localities of the Warsaw District (where they were settled in the emptied already Jewish ghettos). Ca. 18,000 persons were sent to Auschwitz and Majdanek where most of them died, also in the gas chambers and due to the phenol injections . Just for such case - the murder of 120 children in Auschwitz with penthol injections - inquired recently Danny Keren. The Ukrainian families living there were resettled to the east with their movable property, with no more violence and crimes. Planned in further future Germanization of the town Zamosc (a pearl of Renaissance architecture) did not follow, as well as its renaming for Himmlerstadt.
In the course of whole action the Polish underground movement organized the partisan groups to fight against Nazis. These groups made 300 armed attacks against German expelling sections and against the railways transports. Some German colonists villages had been attacked and fired. It caused the slowing down of the resettlement tempo and in March 1943 the whole action had been suspended. The course of events on the eastern front (Stalingrad) also had its own importance, but mainly against the SS action protested the governor of Lublin District Emil Zoerner because the agricultural production in this region fell down by 75% and Polish peasants fled for life leaving threated places, even in a long distance from Zamosc. Also General Governor Frank wanted to postpone such actions to the after war period. It is said that Goebbels, too, treated the whole action as sensless and as unnecessary evoking of disquietness on the front back.
In spite of that - in July 1943 - SS resumed the action again; this time connected with pacifications directed against partisans. Further 180 Polish villages had been expelled and partially ruined.
Together in both periods about 110,000 inhabitants (among them 30,000 children) fell a victim of Nazis. In their place 25,000 Germans had been settled. The exact number of dead victims is not known.
Comparing this criminal action with the Holocaust of Jews it is obvious that in both cases the authors were directed by ideological reasons. The expulsion of Zamosc region was totally unreasonable from the economic, military and political points of view. It caused a partial ruin of the important agricultural region, drew away pretty big police and army forces as well as transport facilities from the war goals, evoked the development of the partisan movement and intensified hatred to occupants in the whole GG. Despite all that Himmler and his subordinates could not refrain and wait till the end of war with such actions. The other important phenomenon was utilize against Poles the infrastructure and procedures invented for the extermination of Jews. There is nothing strange in that, because both actions were directed by the same person: the SS and police commander in district Lublin Odilo Globocnik, one of the main executors of the "Aktion Reinhard".
In the opinion of Polish historians the case of Zamosc region , presented here shortly, confirms the Nazi plans contained in the so called "Generalplan Ost" agains Poles as the next after Jews victims of their genocide policy. On "Generalplan Ost" mentioned some days ago Steve Paulsson. The Zamosc region case also shows how, probably, the after war policy agains Poles would look if Third Reich had won the war.
The literature of the subject contains some dozen references, unfortunately almost all of them in Polish. The main work is the collection of documents "Zamojszczyzna - Sonderlaboratorium SS", edited by Czeslaw Madajczyk, vols. 1-2, Warsaw 1979, containing about 500 documents. About half of them are the German documents published in the original language (as well as in Polish).
Jerzy Halbersztadt, the University of Warsaw and Director of the Polish Program of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington D.C.
01-682 Warszawa, Kiwerska Str. 16/8
fax/tel.: (+48 22) 33-79-21
e-mail: halberuw@plearn.edu.pl
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 15:25:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Arthur Butz on the Holocaus List
From: "Richard Jensen, exec. dir. H-Net" <CAMPBELLD%APSU@UIC.EDU>
re: Butz on the list.
As the executive director of H-NET, let me offer a somewhat different perspective.
It is true that all messages sent to HOLOCAUS are controlled by the moderators. However, list subscriber have, or will have, additional privileges beyond just posting and reading.
The H-Net vision is that its lists are/will become a community of scholars. Ultimately, various forms of participation beyond posting messages will may become feasible. For example, nominating or even voting for candidates for the list's editorial board. H-Net Central will be evaluating HOLOCAUS, and will be asking subscribers to comment on the quality of the list and to evaluate the moderators.
All subscribers get a vote. It therefore does make a
difference who else is on the list, whether or not they ever
post a message.
Richard Jensen
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 15:35:37 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Gary S Weissman <weissman@csd.uwm.edu> Subject: sobibor memorial camp
In 1991 I visited the location of the Sobibor death camp. Since then I have been unsuccessful in my efforts to research the history of the camp's memorialization. My visit to the camp raised several questions.
There is a memorial wall with four plaques on it-- three on one end of the wall, in English, Hebrew and Yiddish-- and one plaque in Polish on the opposite end, separated by the length of the wall. The plaque in English reads:
"At this site, between the years 1942 and 1943, there existed a Nazi death camp where 250,000 Jews and approximately 1000 Poles were murdered. On October 14th.1943, during the armed revolt by the Jewish prisoners the Nazis were overpowered and several hundred prisoners escaped to freedom. Following this revolt the death camp ceased to function. "Earth conceal not my blood" [Job]
In Konnilyn G. Feig's1981 book, "Hitler's Death Camps," I read:
"At the edge of the narrow highway stands a small stone monument denoting that this spot was Sobibor. On it are the words: 'In this place from May 1942 until October 1943 there existed a Hitler extermination camp. At this place 250,000 Russian, Polish, Jewish and Gypsy prisoners were murdered'."
I did not see this small stone monument at Sobibor; I assume the wall replaced it. What I want to know is who had this wall memorial built and when? Who commissioned it, who designed it, etc.?
In addition, Konnilyn describes this monument at Sobibor: "a large mound of earth rises out of the ground as would a mass grave. The huge circular mound must be at least 9 meters high. Stones form a surrounding rim. The mound marks the place where the gas chambers stood: appropriately it is covered with multicolored weeds. A glass-plated box filled with human ashes is embedded in the bottom of the stone ridge."
In 1991 when I saw this mound it was covered with grass, weeds, bushes, small trees. It looked disheveled. I do not know why Konnilyn thinks "multicolored weeds" would be "appropriate" but the sense I had of the mound was that it had been abandoned, left to be overgrown. This struck me as troubling because the mound brought to mind the covered ash mound at Majdanek, and I thought that this unattended mound at Sobibor was a mound of human ashes. In the 1991 book "In Fitting Memory," Sybil Milton writes of Sobibor: "Modern monument and mass grave mound located there today. Ca. 500,000 Jews and Gypsies were killed there."
In "Escape From Sobibor" (1982) Richard Rashke writes of returning to Sobibor. "Sixty yards away-- just feet from where the bodies had been burned on beds of railroad tracks-- was a round hill of ashes ringed by a three-foot-high stone wall. I poked the mound and found a bone the size of a bottle cap." In Arad's "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka" (1987) there is no description of the memorial. And so I find that i have only a handful of tidbits to go on-- some conflicting w/ others.
In recent works which depict memorial camps through photographs and description (eg. Young's "The Texture of Memory"; "In Fitting Memory") there is little or no mention of Sobibor. Perhaps because it is neglected and in some perverse sense 'unphotogenic'. Although the extermination camp was destroyed by the Nazis and 'planted over', this is not a good reason to forego documenting its memorialization today. Particualrly since Sobibor was a death camp and the location of a prisoner revolt-- and particularly because the Nazis tried to make it invisible-- it is important to document and make visible its history up to the present-- including, of course, its memorialization.
Therefore I am wondering if anyone on this list might know of resources for finding information about Sobibor's memorialization. So far my inqueries have only turned up the texts cited above. Any help would be immensely appreciated.
Gary Weissman
weissman@csd.uwm.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 15:36:36 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: paulsson@vax.ox.ac.uk Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
Thanks for your response. I've always been a fan of Michnik's.
As to 'western audience': the HOLOCAUS list is English-language, first of all, and most subscribers are in the U.S., Canada and Western Europe. Or was it the passive concept of an audience that you were objecting to?
I have the feeling that the average level of sophistication of list users is not as great as yours; anyway even people like Deborah Lipstadt occasionally come out with strange remarks (Lipstadt, in her book on denial, equates Austrian and Polish claims to be victims of Nazism, ridiculing both). The Yad Vashem bunch are pretty one-sided, too: Unequal Victims is decidedly polemical, and so is much of what Gutman, Kermish and Ajnsztein wrote or have written. That's what I meant by 'reigning orthodoxy'. There was also that debate last year about Polish anti-Semitism in which some of the views were pretty rabid (I wasn't a subscriber yet; someone showed me the whole exchange).
As to the 'Jewish street', I could multiply examples. One friend of mine, when I pointed out that Hitler had killed not only Jews but a lot of Poles as well, said it was 'too bad he didn't get them all'. My son travelled through Scandinavia a few years ago with a girlfriend, but when he then went to Poland she couldn't come with him because her parents were convinced that it wasn't safe for a Jewish girl. I have inside information that when the Reichmanns were approached by the mayor of Warsaw with the idea of putting up an office complex in the city, they refused on the grounds that it was 'inappropriate for a Jewish company to do business with Poland.' etc., etc.
You are right that it is a moral issue. The exact nature of the moral issue has to be defined, however. I recall that when Lech Walesa addressed the Knesset a few years ago and apologized for Polish sins against the Jews, a good part of the Western press leapt to the conclusion that he was admitting to Polish responsibility for the Holocaust, and the deaths of 3 million Jews in Poland was prominently linked to his remarks in all the news stories I saw.
I would say this: traditional anti-Semitism has been strong for centuries in Poland, but I don't think noticeably stronger than in several other countries in the region. There were outbreaks of traditional anti-Semitism in Poland before, during, and after the war, on a similar scale to similar outbreaks following the First World War. It was particularly unfortunate that they coincided with the Holocaust and involved Jews who had survived or were in hiding (there is a nice Polish word, 'niedobitki', which means literally 'persons who had not been sufficiently killed'). Nevertheless, there is no essential connection between these incidents and the Holocaust. They didn't come about because of the Holocaust, they weren't part of the process of the Holocaust, nor did they make any material difference to the outcome of the Holocaust. They were good old-fashioned pogrom-style antiSemitism, 'emotional' anti-Semitism, as Hitler called it, whereas the Holocaust was 'rational' anti-Semitism. Most Poles have no trouble admitting that such things have happened in their past, and that they are deplorable, that their traditional attutudes to the Jews are responsible, and that education needs to be done and so on. Well, most educated Poles, anyway. But they do also regard themselves, quite correctly, as among the major victims of Nazism, and as the country where there was perhaps the least collaboration with the Nazis, and they rather object to being singled out as the world's most notorious anti-Semites and to having their notoriety trotted out in the context of the Holocaust, when so many others did so much more to help the Nazis than they did.
Sorry for running off at the mouth.
Steve Paulsson, Oxford
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 15:37:34 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Robert Skloot <SKLOOT@macc.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Need a monologue about the Holocaust
----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You might look at Charlotte Delbo's play WHO WILL CARRY THE WORD? The play has a cast of 22 women, and a number of speeches would lend themselves to monolog presentation. The play can be found in the anthology THE THEATRE OF THE HOLOCAUST (Univ. of Wisconsin, 1982). Your library should have it. Bob [Skloot@Macc.Wisc.Edu]; Theatre & Drama, U. of WI.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 15:47:54 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Brian Suddeth <suddethb@nmbnet.army.mil> Subject: 1994-09-09 President Names Roth to Holocaust Memorial Council
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:21-0400
From: The White House <Publications-Admin@whitehouse.gov>
Reply-To: Clinton-Info@campaign92.org
Subject: 1994-09-09 President Names Roth to Holocaust Memorial Council
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
PRESIDENT CLINTON ANNOUNCES HIS INTENTION TO APPOINT
ROTH TO HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL COUNCIL
President Clinton today announced his intention to appoint John Roth to be a member of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council.
Mr. Roth is professor of philosophy at Claremont McKenna College, and was named the 1988 Carnegie Foundation National Professor of the Year. He has served as Visiting Professor of Holocaust Studies at the University of Haifa in Israel, and has authored and edited 21 books, including Approaches to Auschwitz: The Holocaust and Its Legacy and Different Voices: Women and the Holocaust. He also chairs the California Council for the Humanities.
The council was established in 1979 to provide for the annual commemoration of the Days of Remembrance and to construct and operate a permanent living memorial museum to the victims of the Holocaust.
The museum was dedicated April 22, 1993.
30-30-30
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 16:04:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: The Term "Holocaust" vs "Shoah"
From: simonwie@CLASS.ORG (Paul Hamburg)
>From: KANDRA <SRM1198@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu>
>
>A question came up last night in a conversation with a friend who does not
>call the Holocaust "the Holocasut" but the "Shoa" because she somehow feels
>that
>the labeling of the event as "burnt sacrifice" is somehow lessening.
>
>>From this I thought of the following, and I invite you all to help me
>understand this.
>
>1) Why/Who labelled the Holocaust (or, for more PC terms, "The event which
>occured in Eastern Europe during WWII in which 12 million people were
>killed")
>"The Holocaust"?
>
>2) Is it such a disgrace to the victims to call the event "A Sacrifice"?
>Rather than "complete destruction" (Shoa) doesn't it at least provide (even
>if
>somewhat false) a sort of sanctity and adds a droplet of meaning? Isn't
that
>a
>good thing?
>
> -Rica
>
>
>SRM1198@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Rica Mendes, Oberlin
College
>
>
Two sources worth looking at are:
Tal, Uriel. "On the Study of the Holocaust and Genocide." in Yad Vashem
Studies(13)
7-52. See especially: Appendix: Excursus on Hermeneutical Aspects of the
Term Sh'oah, pp. 46-52.
Young, James E. Writing and Rewriting the Holocaust: Narraive Consequences of Interpretation. Bloomington : Indiana University Press, 1988. See especially Chapter 5: Names of the Holocaust: Meaning and Consequences.
Paul H. Hamburg
Reference Librarian
Simon Wiesenthal Center Library & Archives
9760 W. Pico Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90035-4792
Tel: 310-553-9036, ext. 292
Fax: 310-553-8659/310-277-5558
E-mail: simonwie@class.org
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 16:53:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Reponses about Arthur Butz
The number of responses I received on the issue of Arthur Butz's application for membership on Holocaus was so overwhelming that I could not post everyone's response. If your message wasn't included among the ones which were posted, I apologize. It was not my intention to slight anyone.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 16:53:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: German/Austrian Resources
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
I've just come across two newsletters, both in German, that deal with the Holocaust era and resistance to the Nazis on the part of Germans and Austrians, as well as others in German-speaking lands.
AVS Informationsdienst
SPD-Parteivorstand
Ollenhauserstrasse 1
53119 Bonn
Federal Republic of Germany
redaktion: Heinz Putzrath
The AVS is the Arbeitsgemeinschaft Verfolgter SOzialdemokratie [1933-1945]
Mittelungen Dokumentationsarkiv des osterreischischen Widerstandes
1010 Wien
Wipplingerstrasse 8
[Altes Rathaus]
Austria
redaktion: Dr. Christa Mehany-Mitterutzner
A third item of related interest: The Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, a research and education foundation connected with the SPD, published a booklet last year entitled
EIN FREUND IN NOT: DAS JUDISCHE ARBEITERKOMITEE IN NEW YORK UND DIE FLUCHTLINGE AUS DEN DEUTSCHSPRACHIGEN LANDERN, 1933-1945 , which is by Prof. Jack Jacobs.
COpies are available from the
Friedrich Ebert Stiftung
149 Godesberger Allee
53 170 Bonn
Federal Republic of Germany
If anyone makes use of these resources, I'd be interested in how they evaluate them.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 16:53:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need address for Elie Wiesel
From: MStebel@aol.com
I need to mail/FAX a letter to Mr. Wiesel. Does anyone out there know how I
can reach him?
Thanks!
Mike Stebel
Editor's Note: Please email responses directly to Mr. Stebel. Mr. Wiesel may not want his address made public to the list.
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 21:10:59 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: SCOTT DENHAM <SCDENHAM@DAVIDSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate works in libraries?
Froma,
Our head cataloguer here says that, though some cataloguing schemes (LC, for
example) give guidlines about where books should be placed, the decision is
actually an institutional one. Note that there is an LC subject heading for
"Holocaust: errors," etc. I wonder who chose that? WHy doesn't it
say:"Holocaust: denial, lying about," etc.?
Scott Denham
German Dept.
Davidson College
scdenham@davidson.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 21:12:20 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: franklin littell <FHL@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate works in libraries?
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 11 Sep 1994 10:32:30 CDT from <U15607@UICVM>
On the placement of DENIER material side-by-side with legitimate academic materials on the Holocaust: The DENIERS are counting on the uninformed and overworked library situation. Moreover they are offering 10-12 books which push their ideological line, free of charge, to both college and high school libraries. Think how pleasant that sounds to a naive librarian whose book budget has been cut to the bone! THE SOLUTION which I have followed in my Seminar Room for many years is to have a separate collection of the pathological materials, which I have collected from Nazism, American Nativism, propa gandist CP groups, etc - and urge students to become familiar with them. The DENIERS say nothing that is significant for scholars, but they need to be studied as a political phenomenon, and the two sets of books and the two
studies must be kept separate in purpose and methodology. Franklin Littell (FHL@VM.TEMPLE.EDU)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 21:13:37 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate works in libraries?
Froma:
Butz gave Holocaust Denial a veneer of legitimacy by manipulating and distorting data which he footnoted and cross-referenced.
Rassinier was a communist member of the French Resistance and interned at Buchenwald. A strident anti-Semite, he claimed the Holocaust was a myth used as a cash cow for Israel; Zionsits fabricated the existence of gas chambers; and, Nazi war criminals lied to get more lenient sentences. he was influential in Europe and America.
Perhaps this is a partial explanation why these individuals gain access to credible areas of research!?
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg.
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:13:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Holocaus policies on Butz and other deniers
From: Alex Sagan <sagan@husc.harvard.edu>
Dear Jim Mott (and subscribers to the list):
My first impulse was to send this to you personally, rather than to the entire list (though on reflection am sending it for distribution to the list). You may take that as an indication of just how "creeped out" I am by the possible presence of Holocaust deniers, even as "lurkers". Holocaust deniers are a nefarious bunch of antisemites who seek to minimize mass murder. Their work continues the Nazi attempt to obfuscate the character of the Nazis' heinous criminality. They are not discussants as much as they are participants in an attempt to cover up murderous acts.
I have often wondered if your work as moderator involves excluding posts from Holocaust deniers. Given the amount of denial trash on unmoderated lists, I assumed that you were regularly junking such stuff. But your query about Butz makes me think that, thus far, submissions from deniers are not a problem. I'd be obliged if you could clarify how much, if ever, you have to deal with deniers in your duties as moderator.
While I share reservations about excluding people, and about setting up acceptable criteria for making such determinations, Butz's position is well known and hardly falls into any sort of gray area. The notion, voiced my several people, that Butz might "learn something" about historical verities by subscribing strikes me as unrealistic. Like everyone else, he has access to the mountain of historical documentation and solid scholarly work that demonstrate the nature of Nazi genocide. That Butz denies the Holocaust despite this irrefutable evidence demonstrates that our list could do little to change his perverse views.
Could we learn something from dialogue with Butz? Very unlikely, and certainly not in a manner in keeping with the discussions that characterize this list. One flamer or nut can spoil the discursive community for everyone else, as any amount of netsurfing will demonstrate. Anyone interested in communicating directly with deniers can do so on alt.revisionism.
So, it seems to me that there is no positive reason to include Butz. Are you, as the moderataor, or we, as the community that sustains dialogue on this list, willing to exclude someone with his record? The clear answer, from you and from so many list members, is yes.
It appears that the damage Butz might do as a subscriber probably outweighs any costs of excluding him. Counterproductive submissions by deniers do not strike me as the main risk, because you could discard any posts that were not in keeping with the aims of the list. But deniers often try to hijack debate by starting with an opening question that appears reasonable. Providing a subscription to Butz could make it easier for him to distract or inflame you or the list's subscribers.
As to the damage Butz could do, Froma Zeitlin's point is particularly compelling. Given the outrageous way that deniers misquote and distort the statements of serious scholars of the Holocaust, we would not want to make our discussions readily available for their exploitation. Obviously, deniers can (and probably already do) subscribe to this list through pseudonyms and other means. But why make this access easier?
Of course the very act of excluding Butz from the list, and our debate of the question, might be used by deniers to accuse members of this list of participating in a supposed conspiracy to defend what deniers call "lies" from what deniers call "open debate". Butz's request, if turned down, can serve as part of the deniers' ongoing quest to portray themselves as intellectual martyrs and as defenders of free speech. But the very fact that we recognize the historicity of Nazi genocide already opens us up to bogus accusations by crazed or calculating deniers. We can expect their attacks, but we cannot avoid them.
The very existence of Holocaust deniers is a blight, and there is no perfect way to respond to their activities. Under the circumstances, it seems that Butz is not wecome and would not contribute to the goals of the list.
A further question I have for you, in addition to the one concerning other dealings with deniers as moderator of HOLOCAUS, is: Can you tell us something about the guidelines for moderators, the role of the UIC or anyone else who has a hand in maintaining the list, and anything else relevant that we may not know about the governance of the list?
While your post motivated interesting responses, we should not be distracted too long by Butz. I hope your query will serve as an opportunity to reach a clearer understanding of how suscribers view this very fine list, but not will not become the sort of overly-long diversion that would play into the strategy of deniers. It is a regrettable irony that I have already gone on too long.
Yours,
Alex Sagan
For those who might consider this outright exclusion of Holocaust deniers, you are correct. However, to tell you the truth, I very rarely receive any messages from deniers. When I first took over as Holocaus moderator I expected this to be a problem. It has not. For the most past, any deniers on the list (if any) have restricted themselves to lurking.
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:23:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Schindler's List Video
From: Elsa Wachs <efw@netaxs.com>
My grapevine has told me that if teachers or administrators contact
Universal Studios in Hollywood
to the attention of Speilberg or Schindler's List they will give you the
info about getting the video free or at a reduced rate.I feel this lead
shoud be checked out even if it is hearsay.
I am grateful for all the info you Holoc.list members have ben sending me re: Auchwicz and Hungry. Thank you. Elsa Wachs efw@netaxs.com From holoweb@h-net.msu.edu Thu Aug 22 14:21:39 1996 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:20:41 -0400 (EDT) From: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> To: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu> Subject: log 9409c
>From LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU Mon Aug 12 22:19:44 1996 Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.50]) by h-net.msu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA33200 for <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:54:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199608121854.OAA33200@h-net.msu.edu> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
with BSMTP id 8806; Mon, 12 Aug 96 13:53:40 CDT Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6053; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:35 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UICVM (1.8b)" <LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU> Subject: File: "HOLOCAUS LOG9409C" To: H-NET Help <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:44:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Sympathies of French Caribbean Islands
From: GLUCKD@ACFcluster.NYU.EDU
Does anyone have knowledge of information on how the islands in the French
Caribbean (Martinique, Guadeloupe, French St. Maarten, etc.) leaned during
the
war- were they Petainists or Free? Were there Jews in these places? I
doubt
there were Jewish refugees, but were there indigenous Jewish poplulations
andm
if so, what happened to them? I have not been able find any mention of this
in the usual sources.
Denise Gluck
American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee Archives
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:44:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Holocaust Education [x H-German]
To: Multiple recipients of list H-GERMAN
<H-GERMAN%UICVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
blieberman@FSCVAX.FSC.MASS.EDU
At the German Studies Association Conference last year (1993), an organization for promoting courses on the Holocaust held a reception. What is the name of this organization? What is its address?
Thanks,
Ben Lieberman
BLieberman@fscvax.fsc.mass.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:44:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Cal State U Chico's Holocaust and Genocide commemoration
From: Sam Edelman <sedelman@facultypo.csuchico.edu>
Jim, the following is the calendar of events for the the California State University Chico's Holocaust and Genocide commemoration. We should like others to know what we are doing. Sam Edelman (sedelman@oavax.csuchico.edu)
Genericide
August 24-28 7:30 p.m.
(3 p.m. Sunday) Wismer Theatre
University Public Events presents Genericide, the opening event for the Holocaust Remembrance. A dramatic production written and directed by Michael Dunn, graduate student in Communication Design, this interactive presentation invites the audience to participate in a travel through history and memory. A young man in the present uses virtual reality to travel through time to rescue Charlotte, a survivor and poet in Germany in 1944. Her lessons teach him that he cannot go back to change the past, but that through learning he can affect the present. Luis Santos, graduate student in Music and Communications, provides music and sound design.
Dealing with the Nazi Past:
Politics of Memory
Brown Bag Seminar Series
Sept. 7 (and each Wednesday throughout the fall semester) .c.Noon
Trinity 139
Join Dr. Magda Mueller, Foreign Languages and Literatures, in a Brown Bag Seminar Series exploring the Nazi past and how different groups of people deal with the memory of the events. Guest scholars and lecturers will explore such issues as the arts after Auschwitz; the politics of memorials; feminist approaches to the Nazi past; and children of the Nazis.
German Film Series
September 7 (continuing through the fall semester on the first and third
Wednesday of each month)
7:15 p.m. Taylor 106
This film series of German-made films explores how Germans deal with the Nazi past through films. Discussion with Dr. Mueller follows each film.
Fall Semester
German Film Series Schedule:
September 7
The Tin Drum by Volker Schilndorff (1979)
September 14
The Nasty Girl by Michael Verhoeven (1990)
September 21
Germany, Pale Mother by Helma Sanders-Brahms (1980)
October 5
Lili Marleen by Rainer W. Fassbinder (1981)
October 19
David by Peter Lilienthal (1982)
November 30
Abschied von Gestern by Alexander Kluge (1966)
December 7
The White Rose by Michael Verhoeven (1983)
Chamber Music Series Concert
Music For the End of Time
Sept. 9 7:30 p.m. Harlen Adams Theatre
The Chamber Music Series opens its season with a program featuring Quartet for the End of Time, a visionary work composed by Olivier Messiaen and performed in Stalag VIII in 1942. Bay Area cellist Burke Schuchmann will join faculty artists Russell Burnham, Robert Bowman, and David Mallory. Schuchmann will also play a composition by Ernest Block based on the Kol Nidre. Other selections will include Jean Langlais' Song of Peace.
Genocide Film Series
Cambodia: Year Zero
Oct. 6 7 p.m. Ayres 106
In 1975 when the Khmer Rouge took control in Cambodia, they renamed the country Kampuchea and re-started time as they began the social-engineering that led to the killing fields. This documentary chronicles Year Zero. $1 at the door.
Schindler:
The Original Documentary
With Jon Blair
October 13 7 p.m. Ayres 106
Cinematographer John Blair shows the documentary that prompted Spielberg's interest in Schindler's List.
International Forum
The Past That Cannot Be Mastered
A lecture by Laird Easton, History
Oct. 18 4 p.m.Ayres 120
Genocide Film Series
The Pink Triangle
October 20 7 p.m. Ayres 106
Members of the Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual Alliance will hold a discussion after the showing of this film that chronicles the persecution of homosexuals during the Nazi era. $1 at the door.
Anthropology Museum Exhibition
German Resistance Under the Nazis
Everyday Life Under Fascism
October 28-November 11 Langdon Hall 301
This two-part exhibit includes a poster display that chronicles the resistance movement within Germany during the Nazi era and a collection of artifacts from the estate of Walter Kohn, Librarian Emeritus of CSU, Chico who died in 1988. Kohn, who fled the Nazis in 1937, lost his parents and wife to the Holocaust.
Genocide Film Series
The Restless Conscience
Nov. 3 7 p.m. Ayres 106
The Restless Conscience (1992), directed by Hava Kohav Beller, was released in 1992 and focuses on the resistance to Hitler within Germany. It was nominated for an Academy Award in 1993 for Best Documentary and received awards from the Petra Foundation, the American Film and Video Association, and from Women in Films. CSU, Chico faculty member Magda Mueller, Foreign Languages and Literatures, served as a consultant to the film and will lead a discussion after the film's showing. $1 at the door.
Bent
Nov. 3-6, 9-12, 7:30 p.m.
(3 p.m. Sunday) .c. Wismer Theatre
The Department of Theatre Arts presents Bent, an explosive and provocative drama written by Martin Sherman. Directed by Randy Wonzong, the play introduces Max and Rudy, two gays in Nazi Berlin in the O30s, and tells of their nightmarish odyssey through Nazi Germany, their capture by the Gestapo, the trip to Dachau in a boxcar, and their deaths. For mature audiences.
Hate Crimes in the 90s
Nov. 7 7 p.m. Harlen Adams Theatre
Join us for a panel discussion moderated by Carol Edelman, Sociology, on hate crimes in the U.S. featuring Mike Dunbaugh, Chief of Chico Police; Rev. Edward Melfort, NAACP; Kathy Mikkleson, Deputy Attorney General, California Attorney General's Office; Marv Megibow, CSU, Chico; Sam Edelman, CSU, Chico.
Genocide: When the
Unthinkable Happens
A lecture by Elie Wiesel
Nov. 16 7 p.m. Laxson Auditorium
World-renowned author, journalist, and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel joins Chico's commemoration of the Holocaust with an address in Laxson Auditorium. Author of over 20 books, including Night (l960) and The Forgotten (1992), Wiesel is the Andrew W. Mellon Professor of the Humanities at Boston University and was one of the founders of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. His work over the past fifty years earned him the Congressional Gold Medal of Achievement, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and in l986, the Nobel Peace Prize. When he was awarded the Nobel, Wiesel was characterized as one who ...comes as a messenger to mankind not with a message of hate and revenge, but with one of brotherhood and atonement.
Perspectives on Genocide in
the 20th Century (HCS/Soc l56)
Spring Semester; Mondays 6-9 p.m. Tehama 108
Lectures, guest speakers, and films are used to explore the moral, rhetorical, historical, social, and cultural impact of genocide. Team taught by Carol Edelman, Sociology, and Sam Edelman, Communication Arts and Sciences.
Anne Frank: A Photographic Exhibit
Jan. 30-Feb. 10 University Art Gallery
The CSU, Chico Art Department presents a photographic exhibit of the Anne Frank Story. The exhibit from the Anne Frank Center in New York features photos and a video that tell the heartbreaking story of Anne Frank's life in Amsterdam and her death in a concentration camp. A second exhibit, Anne Frank in the World, is scheduled for October 1995. This exhibit explores the life of Anne Frank with a strong focus on contemporary issues of racism, anti-Semitism, and discrimination in the U.S. and will be sponsored by a local community group, The Anne Frank Committee. For more information, call 898-5351.
Holocaust: Sur-Rational Paintings
Feb. 1-March 10 3rd Floor Gallery
Bell Memorial Union
Fritz Hirshberger, Holocaust survivor, presents a series of paintings of masked people representing the 6 million who died. The paintings at first glance appear simple until the horror of each message becomes clear. A reception for the artist will be held Feb. 2 at 5 p.m. in the gallery.
Dealing with the Nazi Past:
Politics of Memory
Brown Bag Seminar Series
Feb. 8 (and each Wednesday throughout the spring semester) 12 noon
Trinity 139
Join Dr. Magda Mueller, Foreign Languages and Literatures, in a Brown Bag Seminar series exploring the Nazi past. Guest scholars, lectures, and discussions will explore such issues as ways to overcome the conspiracy of silence; aesthetics of resistance; narration of myth; terror of history; and psychoanalytical responses.
German Film Series
Feb. 8 (continuing through the spring semester on the first and third
Wednesday of each month)
7:15 p.m. Taylor 106
This film series of German-made films explores explores how Germans deal with the Nazi past through films. Discussion with Dr. Mueller follows each film.
Spring Semester
German Film Series Schedule.c.:
February 8
My Private War by Harriet Eder and Thomas Kufus (1990)
February 22
The Boat is Full by Marcus Imhoof (1980)
March 8
Mephisto by Istvan Szabo (1981)
March 22
Oppermann Family Part One by Egon Monk (1982)
April 5
Oppermann Family Part Two by Egon Monk (1982)
April 26
The Last Five Days by Percy Adlon (1982)
May 10
Europa Europa by Agnieszka Holland (1991)
Anthropology Forum
>From the Cradle of Civilization to
the Crucible of Dehumanization
A lecture by Everette Evans, Political Science
Feb. 9 4 p.m. Ayres 120
Genocide Eyewitness: Knud Dyby
Feb. 20 6 p.m. Harlen Adams Theatre
A veteran of the Danish Resistance, Knud Dyby will relate the now-famous rescue of over 8,000 Danish Jews who escaped the Nazi genocide through the courage of the Danes who ferried them across the sea to Sweden and sanctuary.
International Forum Ethnic Purity and Ethnic Liquidation: The Roots of
Genocide in Somalia and Rwanda
A Lecture by Charles Geshekter, History
Feb. 21 4 p.m. Ayres 120
The Church and Genocide:
Past and Present
A Talk by Franklin Littell and Harry James Cargas
Feb. 23 7 p.m. PAC 144
Invited presenters Harry James Cargas, noted Catholic historian from Webster University, St. Louis, Missouri, and Franklin Littell, director of the Holocaust Center in Philadelphia and father of Holocaust studies in the U.S., will discuss the role of the church during the Holocaust. This keynote address will set the agenda for a two-day symposium on the role and responsibility of the contemporary church in current events.
The Role of the Church in
Contemporary Events
Feb. 24-25
This two-day symposium featuring faculty and church leaders from the North State is sponsored in part by the Chico Area Council of Churches. Call 898-535l to participate and for specific program information.
Kronos Quartet
Different Trains
Feb. 24 7:30 p.m. Laxson Auditorium
Kronos, the world-renowned quartet from San Francisco, returns to Chico with a special concert as part of the University's Holocaust Remembrance Year. Different Trains, composed by Steve Reich, features a series of recordings of train sounds including the trains of Europe in the 30s and 40s and several people including Holocaust survivors. He then selected these samples and notated the musical pitches of the fragments, using the resultant melodies as the basis of the composition. Kronos also will perform Yiddish Book, composed by Osvaldo Golijov. The first movement of this piece commemorates three children Doris Weiserova, Frantisek Bass, and Tomas KauderNwho were interned by the Nazis and later died at Terezin Concentration Camp.
Genocide Eyewitness: Bob Mulholland
March 6 ? 6 p.m. ? BMU 108
Local political consultant Bob Mulholland reports on two recent trips to Cambodia. Most recently, he was a member of a fact-finding team sent by a joint congressional committee to explore the rebuilding of Cambodia. Slides from the trips will illustrate MulhollandOs talk.
Anthropology Forum N
Native Americans and Genocide:
The Historical Controversy
A Talk by Lisa Emmerich, History
March 9 ? 4 p.m. ? Ayres 120
Different Voices: Women and the Holocaust
John Roth, Claremont McKenna College
March 15 7 p.m. PAC 134
The Center for Applied and Professional Ethics presents Dr. John Roth, Russell K. Pitzer Professor of Philosophy at Claremont McKenna College. Named the National Professor of the Year by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, Roth is the author of Approaches to Auschwitz: The Holocaust and its Legacy, Different Voices: Women and the Holocaust, and The Consuming Fire. Roth was a visiting professor of Holocaust Studies at the University of Haifa and is also the Chair of the California Council for the Humanities.
And We Were Left Darkling
March 15-19 7:30 p.m. (3 p.m. Sunday)
Harlen Adams Theatre
Lynn Elliot, playwright and professor of English at CSU, Chico, teams up with James Gilbert, Chair of the Department of Theatre Arts, to present Elliot's prize-winning play, And We Were Left Darkling. This drama turns the spotlight on Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat who single-handedly saved thousands of Jews during the deportations in Hungary in 1944. The action centers on a chess match between Wallenberg and Adolf Eichmann and explores the human capacity to act for good as well as evil. The play's title comes from King Lear, when the Fool says, Out went the candle, and we were left darkling.
Resistance: Comment on War
March 16-April 23 ? .c.Janet Turner Print Gallery
This exhibition features contemporary artistic responses to war, the military, and to loss of lives.
Genocide Eyewitness:
Stjepan Mestrovic
March 20 ? 6 p.m. ? BMU 108
Professor of Sociology at Texas A & M, Dr. Stjepan Mestrovic will present an address entitled, OGenocide After Emotion: The Post-Emotional Balkan War.O Author of several books, including The Balkanization of the West, Mestrovic was a Fulbright Scholar to Croatia in 1992.
International Forum N Erasing the Past: The Question of Holocaust Denial
A lecture by Peter Hoffenberg, History
March 21 ? 4 p.m. ? Ayres 120
Genocide Eyewitness: Guy Katabarwa
April 3 ? 6 p.m. ? Harlen Adams Theatre
A citizen of Rwanda and a member of the Tutsi tribe, Guy Katabarwa is currently a student at Sacramento State UniversityOs School of Business and will speak on the current turmoil in his country.
International Forum N Destruction of Latin America's Native Population
A lecture by Susan Place, Geography
April 4 4 p.m. Ayres 120
Holocaust Museum Travel/Study Trips
April 10-16
Prof. Carol Edelman, Sociology, and Prof. Sam Edelman, Communication Arts and Design, will lead a travel/study trip to Washington D.C. to the Holocaust Museum. Participants will also visit the State Department, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and will meet with scholars of the Holocaust and genocide.
I Never Saw Another Butterfly
April 20 7:30 p.m. Laxson Auditorium
Terezin, a Czechoslovakian concentration camp, is the setting for a play about survival written by Celeste Raspanti. A dramatic recreation of the life of Raja Englanderova, the play is based on documentary materials, poems, diaries, letters, journals, and pictures. Directed by Mercedes Gilbert, Theatre Arts Department, the play features actors from the University and public schools. Raja narrates the play, and tells us that she survived, ...not alone, and not afraid. This play is produced as a part of the University Public Events Field Trip Series and will provide an effective avenue for those wishing to introduce children to the Holocaust.
International Forum
The Balkan War and Ethnic Cleansing
Irv Schiffman, Moderator
April 25 4 p.m. Ayres 120
Genocide Eyewitness: Holocaust Concentration Camps April 26 7 p.m. Siskiyou 120
Join faculty, staff, and students who have visited Nazi concentration camps for a discussion of the experience. Prof. Carol Edelman leads the discussion and shows slides of the camps. For mature audiences.
Genocide Film Series
Westerbork: Holland's Transit Camp
April 28 7 p.m. Ayres 106
CSU, Chico Librarian Carol Hardy presents a film from her 1994 trip to Holland. It focuses on Westerbork, the transit camp that processed thousands of Dutch Jews for the death camps in the east, and chronicles the story of ordinary Dutch people and their fight against the Nazi occupation. Hannie Voyles, Chair of Butte College's Humanities Department, whose family did not survive the Holocaust, revisited the transit camp with Hardy and her story is featured in the film. Both will answer questions and lead a discussion after the film. $1 at the door.
Genocide Eyewitness: Sareth Pen
May 1 6 p.m. Harlen Adams Theatre
Sareth Pen, survivor of the Cambodian killing fields who came to this country in 1979, joins us with news and slides from an August 1994 trip to Cambodia.
Genocide Eyewitness:
Holocaust Survivor
May 8 6 p.m. Harlen Adams Theatre
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:04:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Survivors Alive Today
From: M_BURKE@prime.delta.edu
Today as my writing students and I were discussing the life of Elie Wiesel, one student asked how many Holocaust survivors were alive today. I had stats on how many had survived the camps, thanks to this list, but was unsure how to answer this question. Approximately how many would still be alive?
To: Multiple recipients of list H-GERMAN
<H-GERMAN%UICVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Other organizations and institutions that provide assistance/ support/literature/lectures/workshops are:
Holocaust Memorial Foundation of Illinois
4255 West Main St.
Skokie, IL 60076-2063
Tel. 708/677-4640
offers free bibliography/chronology of the holocaust, and free lesson plans, video rentals, and teacher' s guide for secondary schools for a small fee.
***
Social Studies School Service
10200 Jefferson Boulevard, Room J
P.O. Box 802
Culver City, CA 90232-0802
1-800-421-4246
Fax 310/839-2249
offers a resource material list TEACHING THE HOLOCAUST, RESOURCES AND MATERIALS.
***
Holocaust Memorial Center
6602 W. Maple Road
West Bloomfield, MI 48322
Tel. 313/661-0840
Fax 313/661-4204
founded in 1984 as part of the Jewish Community Center in Detroit. The Memorial Center consists of an exhibition area and a library. They are planning to establish a research center and an education department.
***
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
100 Raoul Wallenberg Place, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20024-2150
Tel. 202/488-0400
opened in April 1993, the museum includes a library, an archive and an education department.
***
Facing History and Ourselves Resource Center
25 Kennard Road
Brookline, MA 02146
Facing History and Ourselves Resource Center
35 E. Wacker Dr.
Chicago, IL 60601
Tel. 312/726-0083
Offers educators from a variety of classroom settings appropriate materials and techniques for bringing the history of 20th century genocide, the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide, to their students. Awareness workshops and individual planning sessions are offered at the center.
***
And here are two recent book publications which I would like to mention:
DAS ECHO DES HOLOCAUSTS: Paedagogische Aspekte des Erinnerns. Hrsg. von
Helmut Schreier, Matthias Heyl. Hamburg: Verlag Dr. R. Kraemer, c1992. 273
p.
ISBN 3-926952-68-7
ZUM THEMA NATIONALSOZIALISMUS IM DaF-LEHRWERK UND -UNTERRICHT. hrsg. von
Joachim Warmbold... Muenchen: Iduicium, c1993. 215 p. ISBN 3-89129-256-2
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:59:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: USHMM Research Institute Events
From: David Dickerson <ddickerson@igc.apc.org>
Greetings!
I visited the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum's World Wide Web server (http://www.ushmm.org/home.html) yesterday evening and one of the items I retrieved was the Research Institute's September 1994 calendar.
Although some of the events have already taken place, I thought you might like to know that the following two events have not yet occurred:
Research Institute Conference Room, Fifth Floor
TITLE: A Continuing Scourge: Causes of Genocide
in the Twentieth Century
GUEST: Helen Fein, Executive Director,
Institute for the Study of Genocide
2. Sunday, September 25, 6:00-7:30 PM
Helena Rubinstein Auditorium
TITLE: Racism and Nationalism
GUEST: George L. Mosse, the first J.B. and Maurice C.
Shapiro Senior Scholar-in-Residence, United
States Holocaust Research Institute, and John
C. Bascom and Weinstein-Bascom Professor
Emeritus of History, University of Wisconsin-
Madison and Koebner Professor of History
Emeritus, Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
The Museum's address is as follows:
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
100 Raoul Wallenberg Place, SW
Washington, DC 20024-2150
Phone: 202-488-0400
Fax: 202-488-2690
As you may know, our kind moderator, Jim Mott, has created a fact sheet about the Museum, which you can obtain via e-mail by sending the following message:
get fact sheet
to the LISTSERV at this address:
The USHMM WWW server, incidentally, is developing nicely and is very impressive, even though parts of it are still under construction; the museum's staff should be commended for their hours of hard work in developing this valuable resource. I am certainly thankful for it.
Cordially,
David Dickerson
David Dickerson / / / ddickerson@igc.apc.org
"In a world of absurdity, we must invent reason; we must create beauty out of nothingness." - Elie Wiesel
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:14:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: New USENET group of interest
From: FISHMAN%SNYFARVA@UICVM.UIC.EDU
The USENET newsgroup recently announced the opening of a new World Wide Web
site dealing with Anne Frank and the Holocaust. An acquaintance, Howard
Gershen, writes: "I've just taken a look at it and it has pointers to all
sorts of
info on the Holocaust, not just Anne Frank's story (there's also information
on
Fascism in general, Holocaust denial and revisionism, and news stories about
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum)."
For those with access to Mosaic or other WWW viewers, the connect info follows:
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/ugrads/tdnguyen/Anne_Frank.html
--Charles Fishman
~~
Charles Fishman * Email: Fishman@snyfarva
Distinguished Service Professor * * * Voice: (516) 420-2031
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
```````````````````````````````
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:19:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Sobibor memorial
From: mork@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gordon Mork)
On Sobibor, see Reinhard Matz, Die unsichtbaren Lager (1993), p. 177; only brief information, but the key sentence translates roughly as follows: In Sobibor, in the community of Wlodawa, in the district Chelm, north-east of Lublin, has stood since the beginning of the sixties, at the location of the former extermination camp, a monument by Mieczyslaw Welter. GRMork, Purdue.
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:24:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: Translations and Differring Opinions
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
J. Remigioni has really taken me to task for not having translated an article the way he would have liked it translated. While I must commend him for reminding us of the differences of opinion that arise regarding an appropriate translation, I think it equally necessary to remind him of his own short-sightedness.
Focusing on the original article of Helga Hirsch in "Die Zeit", Remigioni notes that there are "serious errors."
I would readily acknowledge that the translations is not perfect and perhaps simply unclear in spots. But let's see why:
First, Remigioni is concerned "about additions and embellishments present in his translation." Without even addressing the problem be points out, let's also remember that the spirit of any article does not necessarily survive in literal translations. But there is another point alongside this one.....
Remigioni is concerned that "By the way, Hirsch's article appeared in the June 24 issue of "Die Zeit", and not on June 17." Curious? Did Remigioni get the German or the international edition? Unfortunately, the international edition has clear markings on it to identify itself as both edited and sometimes delayed (when it comes to some stories). One could even add that articles do not appear on the same pages in the international edition.
Second, "Also, the sentence: "Ein junger polnischer Journalist hat
seine Landsleute an eine Vergangenheit errinert... ," refers not to
Helga Hirsch, but to Mr. Cichy. Mr. Meier's translation here is quite
wrong." Sorry Remigioni but if you read my article then you would
also have seen a line below that paragraph indicating where the
actual translations was beginning. To be sure, those opening
observations were taken largely from the large print introduction to
the article. If there was an error, then it is in regards to Helga Hirsch
--
whose article originated in Warsaw and my assumption being that the
article was originally composed by a Pole as well -- even if Hirsch
sounds very German!
Third, Remigioni seems to feel a literal translation to be necessary and that the following English translation to be inaccurate, namely, "Cichy accused the sacrosanct Polish underground and Home Army (AK) of having murdered Jews during the 1944 uprising" versus the original "[Cichy] warf der polnischen Untergrundorganisation im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Heimatarmee -- AK, vor, sie haette waehrend des Warschauer Aufstands 1944 auch Juden ermordet." Sure, I moved ehat had been in the conditional tense into the simple past tense. The essential meaning is, however, retained. Did you -- Mr. Remigioni -- read the whole article in German or just parts?
Fourth, we have a similar situation in comparing "Poles generally did not collaborate with their Nazi occupiers." with the original: "Polen blieb ein Land ohne Kollaboration." Even Remigionis translations runs as follows: "Poland remained a country with no collaboration." I must admit that Mr. Remigioni does not seem to be a native speaker of English.
Fifth, as for my translation "With the inclusion of Poland in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations did not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined with anti-Communism. Following the rejection of the "Jewish commune" (whose leaders' names, i.e., Berman or Lampe, were clearly not Polish), some former members of the AK (read Jews") were put on trial as political reactionaries." as compared with the original:
Weil Polen dem sowjetischen Einflussbereich zugeschlagen wurde, konnte sich das polnisch-juedische Verhaeltnis auch nach dem Krieg nicht normalisieren. Antisemitismus erwob sich -- wie schon in der Vorkriegszeit -- mit Antikommunismus: mit der Ablehnung der "Judenkommune", den von Moskau eingesetzten neuen Machthaber, die so unpolnische Namen tragen wie Berman und Lampe und mit Hilfe von Militaer und Sicherheitsdients nun jene AK-Untergrundkaempfer als "Auswurf der Reaktion" verleumdeten und verurteilten, die fuer die Freiheit des Landes gekaempft haben.
Remigioni translated the entire passage as follows to correct how I had persumably distorted the meaning of the original text:
``Because Poland was included in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations could not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined -- as in the pre-war period -- with anti-Communism: with the rejection of the "Jewish commune", the Moscow-installed new power elite bearing such non-Polish names as Berman or Lampe. This new elite started now, with the help of military and security service, to defame and persecute as "reactionary outcasts" the very AK underground fighters who had fought for the liberty of [their] country.''
I would accept Mr. Remigioni's translation as adding an element I chose not to include. But it is an embellishment which Helge Hirsch chose which I edited out in favor of the general spirit of the article. While literal translations may well retain the jouranlistic quality of some statements, they do not always retain the spirit of the overall article.
As I have obviously offended your sensitivities, Mr. Remigioni, I offer a heart-felt apology. However, such statements as "Readers of Mr. M.'s translation should be aware that they cannot rely on it [Dr. Meier's translation to] accurately to reflect the original article." have little place in reponsible commentaries.
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:24:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: German/Austrian Resources
From: MALMGRNG@elmer1.bobst.nyu.edu
Users of the list should note that the Jack Jacobs article, "A Friend in Need: The Jewish Labor Committee and Refugees from German-speaking Lands," was originally written in English, and the original text will be published soon in an annual of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research.
Gail Malmgreen, Wagner Labor Archives, NYU
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:39:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate materials in libraries?
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Thanks on the information about LC guidelines. If it's a library decision at the individual level, I'll press forward here at Princeton.
From: Sarah Hartman <SHARTMAN%WAYNEST1@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
For those of us who are concerned about the works of deniers not being
classed
separately from legitimate works, there is a person at the Library of
Congress
to whom you can address your concerns:
Barbara B. Tillett
Chief, Cataloging Policy and Support Office (CPSO)
Library of Congress
Washington, D.C. 20540-4305
tillett@mail.loc.gov or cpso@mail.loc.gov
In addition, she would handle the related subject heading question--
'Holocaust, Jewish --Errors, inventions, etc.'
One of our catalogers here mused that these items should simply be put in a
separate collection with other pieces of such garbage & all should have the
note "Hate Literature" added to their bibliographic records.
Sarah Hartman
Wayne State University Libraries
From: "Kenneth.Waltzer" <21409MGR@msu.edu>
Franklin Litell's solution is one that was also adopted by the Michigan
State
University library after pressure from several faculty here. Initially, the
Journal of Historical Review was listed and displayed as a regular scholarly
journal in the library periodical room. Several faculty protested that it
was
not a legitimate journal and should not be so displayed. A key librarian
provided strong and strange resistance, insisting matters remain as they
were.
An appeal over his head to the director of the library resulted in success.
The library continued to receive the journal (some faculty sought to stop
the
journal altogether) but began placing it in Special Collections, where a
radical periodical collection is housed, including materials from right
wing organizations.
Ken Waltzer James Madison College
Michigan State U.
From: Richard Ashley John Tidyman <Richard.Tidyman@mq.edu.au>
In the Macquarie University library in Sydney where I am doing my degree there are three copies of the Butz-head's *The Hoax of the Twentieth Century*, but only one of them is on the open shelves and is amongst some of the books that deal with denial. The other two copies are kept in Closed Access with other material (newspaper articles, I think?) relating to the book.
"Oh Cameroon, Oh Cradle of Our Fathers"
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
Mr. Remigioni accusations regarding the accuracy of my translation of Helga Hirsch's article in Die Zeit deserve to be commended and condemned.
First, as to his comment that there are "serious errors" in the translation. I have no doubt that given the speed with which I attempted to make this translation available that errors crept into the final version. However, what he considered "additions and embellishments" were intended to provide something as to the spirit of the article and not a simple literal translation. To be sure, for your tastes I went too far. But let's take a closer look at Mr. Remigioni's commentary:
First, he states that the article appeared in "the June 24 issue of "Die Zeit", and not on June 17. Perhaps the German edition did, but the international edition did not. Should this have been noted? Well, if the editors of Die Zeit didn't choose to remind readers of this fact, then how are we to know?
Second, "the sentence: "Ein junger polnischer Journalist hat seine Landsleute an eine Vergangenheit errinert... ," refers not to Helga Hirsch, but to Mr. Cichy. Mr. Meier's translation here is quite wrong.
Here are other examples of the troubling changes of the (German) text in Mr. M.'s translation:
Meier:
Cichy accused the sacrosanct Polish underground and Home Army (AK) of having murdered Jews during the 1944 uprising.
Original:
[Cichy] warf der polnischen Untergrundorganisation im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Heimatarmee -- AK, vor, sie haette waehrend des Warschauer Aufstands 1944 auch Juden ermordet.
Meier:
Poles generally did not collaborate with their Nazi occupiers.
^^^^^^^^^
Original:
Polen blieb ein Land ohne Kollaboration
Meier:
With the inclusion of Poland in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations did not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined with anti-Communism. Following the rejection of the "Jewish commune" (whose leaders' names, i.e., Berman or Lampe, were clearly not Polish), some former members of the AK (read Jews") were put on trial as political reactionaries. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Original:
Weil Polen dem sowjetischen Einflussbereich zugeschlagen wurde, konnte sich das polnisch-juedische Verhaeltnis auch nach dem Krieg nicht normalisieren. Antisemitismus erwob sich -- wie schon in der Vorkriegszeit -- mit Antikommunismus: mit der Ablehnung der "Judenkommune", den von Moskau eingesetzten neuen Machthaber,
die so unpolnische Namen tragen wie Berman und Lampe und mit Hilfe
von Militaer und Sicherheitsdients nun jene AK-Untergrundkaempfer als "Auswurf der Reaktion" verleumdeten und verurteilten, die fuer die Freiheit des Landes gekaempft haben.
***I shall translate the entire passage. It's necessary because Mr. Meier completely distorts the meaning of the original text:
``Because Poland was included in the Soviet sphere of influence, Polish-Jewish relations could not normalize. Anti-Semitism became intertwined -- as in the pre-war period -- with anti-Communism: with the rejection of the "Jewish commune", the Moscow-installed new power elite bearing such non-Polish names as Berman or Lampe.
This new elite started now, with the help of military and security service, to defame and persecute as "reactionary outcasts" the very AK underground fighters who had fought for the liberty of [their] country.''
Regards,
J. Remigioni
Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:44:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: The Terms "Shoah" and "Holocaust"
From: RJPrys@aol.com
The sorts of questions that you raise come up time and again when I deal
with
Holocaust matters in my classes.
Let me add three references to the two that I see recommended to you already: Zev Garber and Bruce Zuckerman's "Why Do We Call the Holocaust 'The Holocaust?'" (Modern Judaism, 9.2 (1989): 197-211; Irving Louis Horowitz's "Many Genocides, One Holocaust?" (Modern Judaism, 1.1 (1981): 74-89; and Steven Katz's new tome, The Holocaust in Historical Context.
Please keep in touch on this issue.
From: Larry Davis <DAVIS@WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>
I have been reading the Holocaust/Shoah debate for some time now and have (finally) decided to add my bit:
In modern English, HOLOCAUST does mean the murder of 6 million Jews during
the
Second World War. The word's meaning today is less a function of its history
than many on this list have assumed.
From: paulsson@vax.ox.ac.uk
There is a third alternative to 'Holocaust' or 'Shoah', and that is the Yiddish word for it, 'Khurbn', also meaning 'disaster'.
The great majority of those killed were Yiddish-speaking East European Jews, and the Khurbn was not only the death of 6 million individual human beings, but was a death-blow to the unique and vibrant Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazy culture. As an attempt to exterminate the Jews, the Khurbn was a failure; as an attempt to exterminate Yiddishkeit, it was all too successful.
The coup de grace to Yiddishkeit was delivered not by the Nazis, however, but by Israel, which maintained a hostile attitude to Yiddish and Yiddish-speaking immigrants, regarding them as reminders of a humiliating past not to be tolerated in the new state. This would be my objection to the Modern Israeli Hebrew term 'Shoah'.
We should use the word that the victims themselves used. How about it?
Steve Paulsson, Oxford
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
As a point of reference on the "appropriateness" on using Shoah or
Holocaust to describe the destruction of European Jewry: Churban, the
Yiddish
term for the destruction of the ancient temple, was used to refer to the
Shoah/Holocaust after the war.
It would be interesting to locate the period when churban was supplanted
by Holocaust or Shoah.
L'Shanah Tovah,
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg.
eepstein@igc.apc.org
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:44:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Speer and the Final Sol;ution
From: THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU
F Y I to interested parties: In Erich Goldhagen, "Albert Speer, Himmler, and
the Secrecy of the Final Solution" [MIDSTREAM, 17, #8, Oct 71, 43-50] the
author says that, contrary to his post-war claims, Speer was aware of the
extermination of Jews while it was taking place. In his memoirs Speer says
he
was at a meeting in Posen, 6 Oct 43, but he neglects to say that Himmler
spoke
of extermination at this meeting.
Goldhagen is also the author of THE GENOCIDAL MIND -- THE IDEOLOGICAL ROOTS
OF
NAZI GENOCIDE.
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 13:54:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Wiesel Address
From: FISHMAN%SNYFARVA@UICVM.UIC.EDU
Elie Wiesel's address is public knowledge, so I don't see how we can invade
his privacy by publishing it here. For instance, _A Directory of American
Poets &
Fiction Writers_ (1993/94 ed.) gives the following:
Elie Wiesel
Boston University
745 Commonwealth Ave
Boston, MA 02215
(617) 353-4566
--Charles Fishman
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
```````````````````````````````
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:09:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: Survivors Alive Today
From: "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@moose.uvm.edu>
> From: M_BURKE@prime.delta.edu
>
> Today as my writing students and I were discussing the life of Elie
> Wiesel, one student asked how many Holocaust survivors were alive today.
> I had stats on how many had survived the camps, thanks to this list, but
> was unsure how to answer this question. Approximately how many would
> still be alive?
>
Professor Burke,
My advisor here at UVM has often raised the number of approx. 350,000 survivors still alive today. She is generally well informed so I tend to trust her figures.
Benjamin Weber
University of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:09:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Document from Lodz Ghetto
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
To anyone on this list who can answer!
I am working on a document from the Lodz Ghetto, but I am no expert on these
matters (I posted about this document here about 6 months ago). One
sentence
puzzles me. The handwriting seems to read: "Wir senen [this is the word in
question] G[ott] s[ei] D[ank] Gesund gehbe Gott von Euch dass gleiche". Most
of the Polish Jews of Lodz would have spoken Yiddish. Does anyone out there
know if "senen" is a Yiddish form of the German "sind"?
The writer also uses "verduent" instead of "verdient" ("earns"). Is this a Yiddish form as well?
Thanks!
Gregory Fried
f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:09:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: Sympathies of French Caribbean Islands
From: "Evelyn Bender @Edison/Fareira" <efhschlib@shrsys.hslc.org>
As a starting place, I can recommend Atlas of the Jewish World, which has
some
information about the Caribbean and a good bibliography.
Evelyn Bender, Librarian
efhschlib@hslc.org
From: SCOTT DENHAM <SCDENHAM@DAVIDSON.EDU>
"Martinique was Petainist through something like the middle of 1943;
Guadaloupe was free French, I think. There were certainly Jews on both
islands, but I
have no information on that." says my colleague here, Lauren Yoder (not a
list
member, but: layoder@davidson.edu)
Scott Denham
Davidson College
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:14:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Holocaust Education
From: Leo.Spitzer@Dartmouth.EDU (Leo Spitzer)
I think the organization you want is
The Holocaust Educational Foundation, 3130 Big Tree Lane, Wilmette, IL 60091
(Tel. 708-251-1952). The President of the Foundation is Theodore Z. Weiss.
The Foundation, in conjunction with Dartmouth College, is sponsoring the
Third Lessons and Legacies Conference On October 22-24 at Dartmouth. The
topic for the conference is "Memory, Memorialization, and Denial." If you,
or anyone else wants the full conference program or more information,
contact
Zev Weiss at the foundation, or me through e-mail.
Leo Spitzer
Professor of History
Dartmouth College
leo.spitzer@dartmouth.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:24:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: "Paul Lawrence Rose" <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
I think that S. Paulsson's reference to "the Yad Vashem bunch" is out of place in this list and suggests that he ought perhaps to reflect before writing again on the subject of Polish antisemitism. Paul Lawrence Rose, Penn State U (PLR2@PSUVM).
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:54:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need source of the next "Never Forget"
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu>
Does anyone know where the commandment to "Never Forget!" comes from? Information much appreciated!
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
On the point of nomenclature for the "Final Solution" in general terms:
I refer readers once again to the discussion in James Young's Writing
and Rewriting the Holocaust. First, not every country uses the term
'holocaust;' the French simply speak of 'extermination' (keeping the
bluntest term). On the other hand, answering Steve Paulsson -- I take
his point on the 'authentic' Yiddish term 'churbn' but it was not the
only term in use and there are further difficulties with the words as
well. 1. It doesn't apply to non-Yiddish speaking Jews (such as
Greek Jews or other Sepharadim or those assimilated Jews who no longer
spoke Yiddish -- yes, even in Poland). 2. Churbn is a Yiddishized
form of the Hebrew, churban, which is indeed the term for 'destruction'
that became attached to the destructions of the first and second temples.
The third 'churban' as the Holocaust therefore emphasizes the magnitude
of the event, on the same par spiritually (and even liturgically) with
the trauma of the destruction of the spatial and religious context of
priestly Judaism -- but as 'churbn' -- it is transformed into the
vernacular idiom. Either way, 'churbn' (probably impossible for most
folks to pronounce anyway) is a highly charged liturgical word, which
carries along with a great deal of theological baggage (such as imputation
of sin as the cause of the destruction of the temples) that seems to me
far more problematic than the word Holocaust, which also has a secular
meaning and which etymologically ('wholly burnt') is far more accurate.
3. The destruction of the two temples is commemorated on Tisha b'Av
as a day of fast and lamentation (along with other catastrophes, such as
the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492). The matter is further
complicated
in considering the special day established to commemorate the
Holocaust -- Yom Hashoah -- which occurs 5 days after Passover (in the
Hebrew calendar). For what was at stake was precisely whether the Holocaust
should be included or not in already existing dates in the calendar (another
candidate was the 10th day of Tevet). The rabbis wanted to remain within
the calendrical frame, but others resisted (and won) by setting a wholly
different time to mark the 'uniqueness' of the event (more on this in
James Young's book on Monuments and the Making of Memory). In other words,
there is a great deal to be said AGAINST using 'churbn' (which Bundists
didn't like either). Lanzmann's film brought the term Shoah into general
recognition as an alternative for Holocaust, but Holocaust remains, I think,
the standard word (and so used in LC catalogues).
From: FISHMAN%SNYFARVA@UICVM.UIC.EDU
Re the use of Khurbn, rather than Holocaust or Shoah, you might take a look
at
Jerome Rothenberg's sequence of poems by that name:
Rothenberg, Jerome. _Khurbn_ (New Directions, 1989). Rothenberg's
introductory comments on his use of "Khurbn" are pertinent to this debate.
Charles Fishman * Email: Fishman@snyfarva Distinguished Service Professor * * * Voice: (516) 420-2031
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
From: paulsson@vax.ox.ac.uk
I stand corrected. Khurbn doesn't mean 'disaster', it means 'ruin' or 'destruction'. Also it is from the Hebrew. But this just reinforces my point: why was the word Shoah chosen when the equally good Hebrew word Khurbn was already in use by survivors? It seems like a deliberate snub to me.
Steve Paulsson, Oxford
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:14:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: David A Hirsch <david@iowalaw.com>
> I think that S. Paulsson's reference to "the Yad Vashem
> bunch" is out of place in this list and suggests that he
> ought perhaps to reflect before writing again on the
> subject of Polish antisemitism. Paul Lawrence Rose,
> Penn State U (PLR2@PSUVM).
>
While I don't necessarily dissagree with Paul Rose's comment, the offensive
language makes it easier to judge how seriously to take the original
posting.
In that sense it is helpful.
On another point relevant to Polish anti-semitism, the Des Moines couple I referred to in an earlier posting regarding the concentration camp and the guard's wife who lived in the nearby village: It was Auschwitz because the couple interned was on Schindler's list.
Another point relevant to my contention that those near the camp "had to know":
The senior lawyer my my law firm, Richard Beckman (who died about a year and
half ago) was in the CID (American Intelligence) during World War II. Among
other things, he was part of the American contingent at Potsdam (but that is
another story). Because he was in Intelligence, his uniform had no rank on
it. Because the uniform bore no rank, not even a general could give him
orders. One day he and a friend of his in intelligence decided they would
go
to Auschwitz. It had recently been liberated and they decided they wanted
to
see it. They headed there on their own; it was not on official business.
As
they got near the camp there was a horrible smell of human flesh. Dick
describes it as the worst smell he ever experienced (and his face had a look
of horror as he said that). The smell was so bad that they contemplated
turning around. But they decided, "It couldn't get any worse than this," so
they proceeded. And they got closer to the camp, and the smell got even
worse. Again they said, "It couldn't get any worse than this," and
proceeded.
They did this one or two more times. Dick then stopped the jeep, got out,
and
threw up. At that point they turned around. THEY NEVER EVEN GOT TO THE
CAMP.
If the stench was that bad, that far away, the secret couldn't have been too
secret.
David A. Hirsch
Beckman, Hirsch & Ell Telephone: 319-754-8404 314 North Fourth Fax: 319-754-6302 Burlington, IA 52601 david@iowalaw.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 14:53:58 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: French Carribean Islands
From: Bernard Kouchel <koosh@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
An article by Rabbi Malcolm Stern describes the establishment, main events and the present state of important Jewish communities in America and the Caribbean Islands.
Sephardim in America: special edition of American Jewish Archives,
Martin A. Cohen, ed., Cinn. OH: Hebrew Union College, 1992.
It should answer your question about the indigenous Jewish populations.
+---------------------------------------------+
| Bernard Kouchel JGSBCFL Fidonet: 1:369/68 |
| Internet: koosh@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us |
Jewish Genealogical Society, Broward Co, FL
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 14:58:15 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Holocaust Education for 6th graders
From: JUBRENMAN@JTSA.EDU
I am teaching the Holocaust to 6th graders in a Jewish day school in
Manhattan. The children will be putting together a service for the
school in memory of the victims. Any suggestions on materials?
Additionally, a question came up in my class that I have difficulty answering. Following the Holocaust, where did survivors immediately go to? Refugee camps?
Julie Brenman Jubrenman@JTSA.EDU
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:14:32 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Lessons & Legacies III Conference at Dartmouth College Oct 22-24
From: Leo.Spitzer@Dartmouth.EDU (Leo Spitzer)
Lessons and Legacies III: Memory, Memorialization, Denial Conference Sponsored by the Holocaust Educational Foundation and Dartmouth College, October 22-24, 1994
Saturday, October 22, 1994:
3:00 - 5:00 Roundtable I: (105 Dartmouth Hall)
Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the Holocaust
Roger Chickering, University of Oregon, (moderator)
Christopher Browning, German History, Pacific Lutheran University
Gerald Markel, Sociology, Western Michigan University
Geoffrey Peck, German and European Studies, Georgetown University
John Roth, Philosophy, Claremont-McKenna University
Alan Steinweis, Jewish History, University of Nebraska
6:45-9:30 **Welcoming Remarks & Dinner (Alumni Hall, Hopkins Center)
Theodore Z. Weiss, President, Holocaust Educational Foundation
Mary Jean Green, Dean of the Faculty, Dartmouth College
Michael Ermarth and Leo Spitzer, History, Dartmouth College
Martin Sherwin, Dickey Center, Dartmouth College
Address:
Peter Hayes, Northwestern University:
"The Business of Aryanization"
10:00-11:00 Dartmouth Players Bench Reading:
"The Table: A Play in Four Voices and Basso Ostinato" by Ida Fink
Directed by Mara B. Sabinson. Performed by faculty and students
of Dartmouth College. (Bentley Theater, Hopkins Center)
Sunday, October 23, 1994:
8:15-10:15 Panel I: (1 Rockefeller)
"Children With a Star"
Deborah Dwork, Child Study Center, Yale (moderator): "Custody and
Care of Jewish Orphans after the War: The Case of the Netherlands"
Marion Pritchard, Boston Center for Modern Psychoanalytic Studies:
"When Did Their Tragedy End? Jewish Displaced Children in
"Germany"
Elma Verhey, Vrij Nederland: "The Post-War Battle for the Hidden
Children of Holland: A Political and Religious Conflict"
Leonore J. Weitzman, George Mason University: "Crafting a New
Identity: The Double Lives of Jewish Boys and Girls Who
Passed as Aryans in Poland and Germany"
Panel II: (2 Rockefeller)
Commemoration and Representation
Omer Bartov, Rutgers University (moderator and commentator)
Sarah Farmer, University of Iowa, "Oradour and Memorialization
in France"
Nicola Lisus, University of Toronto, "Media, Technology, Memory:
The Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles"
Harold Marcuse,University of California, Santa Barbara, "Dachau:
The Political Aesthetics of Holocaus Memorials"
10:30-12:30 Panel III: (1 Rockefeller)
The Holocaust in Popular Culture
Gerd Gemunden, Dartmouth College (moderator)
Lawrence Baron, San Diego State University: "What do Americans
Know About the Holocaust?"
Scott Denham, Davidson College: "Schindler's List in Germany and
Austria: A Reception Study"
Judith E. Doneson, Institute of Contemporary Jewry, Hebrew
University: "Is a Little Memory Acceptable?"
Michael Geisler, Middlebury College: "Inscribing the Holocaust:
Television and Public Memory in Germany"
Geoffrey Hartman, Yale University (commentator)
Panel IV: (2 Rockefeller)
The German Cultural Context
Jeffrey Diefendorf, University of New Hampshire (moderator)
Michael Berkowitz, Ohio State University, "'The Crisis of German
Ideology': Contextualizing German Culture, the Holocaust, and
German Jewry"
Marjorie Lamberti, Middlebury College, "The Jewish Defence in
Germany from the Weimar Republic to the Third Reich"
Karl Schleunes, University of N.C. at Greensboro, "1933: Racial
Revolution or Continuity?"
Stephen Kalberg, Boston University (commentator)
1:00- 3:00 Lunch/
Teaching Workshops (Box lunches provided for registered
participants:
I. Teaching the Holocaust for the First Time (102 Reed Hall)
Don Schilling, Denison University; Larry Thompson, US Naval
Academy; Gordon Mork, Purdue University; Alan L. Berger,
Syracuse University
II. Teaching the Holocaust in Other Countries (106 Reed Hall)
Henry Mason, Tulane University; Gregory Wegner, University
of Wisconsin, LaCrosse
III. Gender Issues in Teaching the Holocaust (217 Dartmouth Hall))
Marianne Hirsch, Dartmouth College; Ann Taylor, University of
Louisville
IV. Teaching the Holocaust in Comparative Perspective (108
Dartmouth Hall)
Alan Tansman and Shalom Goldman, Dartmouth College
V. Using Video and Oral Testimony in Teaching the Holoaust
(104 Reed Hall)
Irene Kacandes, Dartmouth College; Nathan Cogan, Portland
State
VI. Film and Teaching the Holocaust (206 Dartmouth Hall)
Froma Zeitlin, Princeton University; Ronald Smelser,
University of Utah
3:00-5:00 Roundtable II: (105 Dartmouth)
Denial and Relativization
Michael Ermarth, Dartmouth College (moderator)
Steven Katz, Cornell University
Jonathan Petropolis, Loyola College of Maryland
Richard Wolin, Rice University
Geoffrey Giles, University of Florida
8:30- Keynote Address: (Spaulding Auditorium, Hopkins Center)
Elie Wiesel, Class of 1930 Fellow, Dartmouth College
"The Assault on Memory"
Opening Remarks by Theodore Z. Weiss, President, HEF
Introduction by James O. Freedman, President, Dartmouth College
Monday, October 24:
8:15-10:15 Panel IV: (Loew Auditorium, Hood Museum)
New Research on Auschwitz:
Leo Spitzer, Dartmouth College (moderator)
Robert-Jan van Pelt, University of Waterloo, "The Architecture of
Mass Murder"
Gerhard Weinberg, University of North Carolina (commentator)
10:30-12:30 Roundtable III: (Loew Auditorium, Hood Museum)
Memory, Memorialization, and Museums
George Mosse, University of Wisconsin, Madison (moderator)
Michael Marrus, University of Toronto
James Young; University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Edward Linenthal, University of Wisconsin, Oshkosh
1:00- 3:00 Lunch/
Teaching Workshops /Repeat sessions (Box lunches provided for
registered participants):
I. Film and Teaching the Holocaust (218 Silsby Hall)
II. Using Video and Oral Testimony in Teaching the Holocaust (219
Silsby Hall)
III. Teaching the Holocaust in Comparative Perspective (101
Reed Hall)
IV. Gender Issues in Teaching the Holocaust (107 Reed Hall)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 11:09:17 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Sobibor Memorial
From: mskerem@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il (yitzchak kerem)
Try contacting Tori Blatt in Santa Barbara. He's a Sobibor survivor. He amde a film about Sobibor and also took part in the film Escape from Sobibor. I wrote in the Jerusalem Post several years ago about the monastery at Sobibor and how it descrates the memory of the Jews who persihed there. Yitzchak Kerem
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 11:12:07 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be kept separate from
legitimate works in libraries?
From: Marvin Prosono <MAP881F@SMSVMA>
I believe one would be perfectly justified in characterizing the suggestion that certain library materials be kept in special areas or collections as entirely preposterous. Any library will contain within it literally thousands of works which have become to be seen as false. That there are books on witchcraft which are written with every pretense of seriousness which might in fact convince naive readers is no reason to remove these works from the shelves where the <real> knowledge is and place them on shelves with "pseudo-knowledge." Once this process was begun, where would it end? Older works of science are no longer true. There are numerous political, religious and cultural polemics which might qualify as damnable distortions and hoaxes. All the forces of political correctness would imagine that their prayers had been answered if librarians were instructed to create a section for <works not to be taken seriously>.
This having been said, the works of Holocaust deniers are a fairly specialized kind of writing. I see no reason why every public library should expend funds to maintain copies. Every librarian or library committee must use judgment in purchasing books for their collections. Librarians should be educated as to the value of these works and the appropriateness of ordering them. As for the librarians of our universities and colleges, such works will find their way onto shelves where access to them will provide an opportunity for scholars to refute them if they deserve the time and attention to be refuted.
Creating a special section for deniers would also present a terrible problem of inclusion - who qualifies as a denier? Would this require a modern version of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum?
As vile and irritating as the work of Holocaust deniers is, such work should not add another casualty to their outrages against decency and common sense - the wounding of civilized academic sensibilities.
Marvin Prosono
Department of Sociology
Southwest Missouri State University
Springfield, Missouri 65804
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 11:15:09 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Terminology
From: michael rothberg <MPRGC@CUNYVM>
As far as the question of terminology goes: It seems
to me that the various contributors so far have proven, in their disagreements, that there is no perfect word for the event which will please everyone and not suggest some kind of conceptual error (i.e. too religious or too similar to ot her catastrophes, and thus not unique enough). The neutral choice, i.e. "the Nazi genocide," is even less satisfying because it is somewhat sterile and pseudo-scientific.
Given all that, I personally find it interesting to think of the various terms historically. At one point did "the Holocaust" become the dominant name in English? My own preliminary research into this question sugges ts that, although there are earlier uses (from at least the late 1950s and earl y 1960s), it is only around 1967 that that phrase becomes dominant. For example --in the Spring 1967 issue of _Judaism_, Richard Fein writes of the word Holocaust, that "we now have a word, almost poetically O.K., to describe that horro r." Thinking about the terms in historical context helps to reveal the process by which memory is transmitted and transformed, and the manner in which the Holocaust/Shoah/genocide is inevitably entangled with various contemporary issues, such as Jewish identity, Israeli politics, etc.
--Michael
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 11:34:07 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Jim Mott <U15607@UICVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Where did survivors go following the Holocaust
> From: JUBRENMAN@JTSA.EDU
> I am teaching the Holocaust to 6th graders in a Jewish day school in
> Manhattan. The children will be putting together a service for the
> school in memory of the victims. Any suggestions on materials?
>
> Additionally, a question came up in my class that I have
> difficulty answering. Following the Holocaust, where did survivors
> immediately go to? Refugee camps?
>
> Julie Brenman Jubrenman@JTSA.EDU
>
I don't think it is possible to give a quick and simple answer to the question raised by Julie Brenman. Probably all the conceivable possibilities were in fact used: some survivors went to D.P. camps; others headed for home; still others started on their way to Palestine; some immediately joined or were drafted (especially in the case of the Soviet armed forces) into the allied armies.
The following book is an excellent source of information on this subject:
She'erit Hapleta, 1944-1948. Rehabilitation and political struggle. Proceedings of the sixth Yad Vashem International Historical Conference. Jerusalem, 1990.
Gaston L. Schmir
Immediately following the liberations at the end of the war many survivors actually remained in the camps. I have recently been working with oral histories of Gypsy survivors. Two of the interviewees I am currently transcribing stayed in Bergen-Belsen for two years following their liberation. Many (if not most) of the prisoner barracks had to be burned to avoid the further spread of typhus. Therefore, the former inmates were housed in the SS barracks. These Gypsies speak of the presence of Jewish survivors in the camp following the liberation as well.
Hope this is helpful.
Benjamin Weber
Univ. of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
To Julie Brenman,
One survivor I know was taken to an American army hospital, where he recuperated from serious illnesses. It would be interesting to know how many were treated in this way (which I assume was pretty good).
> From: JUBRENMAN@JTSA.EDU
> I am teaching the Holocaust to 6th graders in a Jewish day school in
> Manhattan. The children will be putting together a service for the
> school in memory of the victims. Any suggestions on materials?
>
> Additionally, a question came up in my class that I have
> difficulty answering. Following the Holocaust, where did survivors
> immediately go to? Refugee camps?
>
> Julie Brenman Jubrenman@JTSA.EDU
>
I think that children would probably relate well to the artwork of the children of Terezin...why not take a look at "I never saw another butterfly," or another collection of the poetry and art of those children.
Nancy Stockdale
Univeristy of California, Santa Barbara
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 11:39:06 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org> Subject: Re: Holocaust Education for 6th graders
Julie:
Last year I advised an inner-city school working on the Holocaust. We were unable to get to the Holocaust Museum until June so the 6th graders constructed their own museum. It was a huge success. Get in touch if you want more info.
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg
2308 Brandywine Dr.
Hbg, PA 17110
717-541-1101
e-mail:eepstein@igc.apc.org
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 09:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Survivors Alive Today
From: KATZSOL@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA
I do not know the figure for the United States. In Montreal, I recently
learned that there are said to be about 8,200 Holocaust survivors still
alive.
This is a high proportion of our total community, which is somewhere
around 95,000.
This is probably the highest proportion of survivors in any community
in Canada.
Sol Katz. Concordia University. Webster Library. KATZSOL@vax2.concordia.ca
K KATKZSOLLl@vax2.concordia.ca
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 12:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: The Nazi Crimes in the Zamosc Region
From: mskerem@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il (yitzchak kerem)
I would like to add that Zamosc was an old Sephardic community.
At Yad VAshem several years ago we had a day conference for teachers on
Sepharidc Jewry in the Holocaust. One of the lectures was on the Sephardim
of
Zamosc and their deporation.
Yitzchak Kerem
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 12:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Teaching the Holocaust to 6th Graders
From: RJPrys@aol.com
two possible sources for you viz. your two questions:
David Adler's We Remember the Holocaust (Henry Holt)--this book might be useful for your class to read.
Abrahm Sachar's The Redemption of the Unwanted--this book would be useful
for
you yourself to read (it would be too difficult, I think, for a sixth grader
to read).
Keep me posted, and let me know if I can be of further help. Good luck.
Richard Prystowsky
From: KANDRA <SRM1198@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>
>I think that children would probably relate well to the artwork of the
>children of Terezin...why not take a look at "I never saw another
>butterfly," or another collection of the poetry and art of those children.
>
>Nancy Stockdale
>Univeristy of California, Santa Barbara
Several years ago, I saw a video tape of artistic interpretations of all the
poems in the book, each poem in a different style. I think that it would be
a
nice way to incorporate the poems into the class. The visual interpretations
really reinforce the situation that these children were in, and, since we
are
living in a "if I don't see it, it didn't happen age", it will also feed the
need to watch it. <shrug> Just my interpretation.
In fact, I would like to teach the Holocaust to my 3rd and 4th grade
students,
but the catch is that I don't know hwo produces the video and how to get it.
-Rica
@}-'-,-- If music be the fruit of life,
Let us eat drink and be merry. --'-,-{@
Yerushalayim shel zahav, v'shel n'choshet v'shel or
Halo l'chol shirayich ani kinor
SRM1198@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Rica Mendes, Oberlin College
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 12:47:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Document from Lodz Ghetto
From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
> From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> > > To anyone on this list who can answer! > > I am working on a document from the Lodz Ghetto, but I am no expert on these > matters (I posted about this document here about 6 months ago). One > sentence > puzzles me. The handwriting seems to read: "Wir senen [this is the word in > question] G[ott] s[ei] D[ank] Gesund gehbe Gott von Euch dass gleiche". Most > of the Polish Jews of Lodz would have spoken Yiddish. Does anyone out there > know if "senen" is a Yiddish form of the German "sind"? > > The writer also uses "verduent" instead of "verdient" ("earns"). Is this a > Yiddish form as well? > > Thanks! > Gregory Fried > f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu >
I assume the document in question is written using the Roman and not the Hebrew alphabet, with consequent problems in transliteration of Yiddish words. In any case, "senen" seems indeed to be the Yiddish form of "sind", though a more rigorous rendering of the Yiddish word would be "zaynen". The puzzling thing is the use of the German "wir" (= we), instead of the Yiddish "mir". As far as "verdient" is concerned, the Yiddish equivalent is "verdint". I don't know where "verduent" might come from.
Gaston L. Schmir
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 12:47:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Change in Text
From: M_BURKE@prime.delta.edu
I regularly teach the narrative, Night, by Elie Wiesel to my developmental
reading and writing classes. Today a reading student asked me what was
meant
by the line, "Free from all social contraint, the young people gave
way openly to instinct, taking advantage of the darkness to flirt in our
midst.."
I couldn't place the line and asked where it occurred in the text. I use
my paperback copy of Night I have had since my college days (mid-70's). My
text used the word copulate, not flirt. (Personally, I find flirt and
copulate
not to be synonomous.) This change is fairly recent. In the past, I have
used the passage as a tool to teach the reading principle, context clues. I
know students as recently as last fall had a version with the original word.
While this change is minor, I was disturbed by the change. What else might censors seek to change?
(The publisher of both my text and the students' is Bantam books.)
From: marcuse@humanitas.ucsb.edu (Harold Marcuse)
A thought on David Hirsch's narration of his former boss's
drive to Auschwitz, which had to be broken off because of
the stench:
Having interviewed a fair number of people who saw/visited
concentration camps shortly after liberation, I've observed
a curious phenomenon: people tend to take the best-known
name of a camp, or the name of the camp in which the interviewer
is interested, and narrate their story in terms of that camp.
In most cases, it turns out that they experienced a sub-camp
(Aussenlager). A liberator of Ohrdruf will tell how he liberated
Buchenwald, or a liberator of Landsberg will tell how he was
one of the first to enter Dachau.
I wouldn't be surprised if your ex-boss didn't try to approach
one of the camps in northern Germany (between Bergen-Belsen,
Neuengamme, and Ravensbrueck, roughly, where many of the
evacuations ended), or in the Austrian-German border region
(axis Mauthausen-Dachau, ditto for the south). Auschwitz had
been cleaned up before liberation, and certainly long before
an American driving a jeep might have approached it the
appalling stench would have dissipated, while there were
many stinking hell-holes much closer to Berlin/Potsdam,
in April and even well into May 1945.
(This, of course, has little bearing on what people living
near any given camp might have known about it before those
chaotic final months.)
Harold Marcuse internet: marcuse@humanitas.ucsb.edu Dept. of History Tel: (805) 968-6703 (home) Univ. of California 893-2635 (office) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 Fax: -8795 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 15:29:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: The Use of Khurbn vs Shoah or Holocaust
From: "Paul Lawrence Rose" <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Churban was indeed used by Philip Friedman in the late 50/s and early 60's, only to be ousted by Holocaust. PLRose Penn State U
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 16:44:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate works in libraries
From: Bernard Katz <bkatz@uoguelph.ca>
There haven't been too many responses to this posting, and I would like to hear from more students/researchers of the Holocaust on the problems faced by university libraries. As another posting noted, the Library of Congress has established a subject heading (Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
In addition, there is a special classification (D 804.35) which is specifically for both denial texts and comments about the denial "movement". It is a subset of the D 804.3 class, which is the main classification for those items dealing with the Jewish Holocaust. The latter is part of D 803-4, which is the section within the Second World War area set aside for "Attrocities. War Crimes. Trials."
These are relatively recent innovations and so earlier materials will have been classified under other class nos., including some that are in very different classifications, such as the denial booklet "Nuremburg and other war crime trials; a new look" exactly right), published by the notorious Historical Review Press in 1978. In any case, one of the issues to be faced is that these classifications place denial materials alongside and together with legitimate historical texts. Even the LC subject heading noted above is used for both, as I have said. And the majority of library catalogues (I wager) do not display subject headings at the initial (sometimes called `brief display') level. So users are not made aware of any distinctions. Ideas have been expressed on my campus of `labelling' the actual denial materials in some way to alert naive users, or placing them in a separate category/classification of some kind. There is a slippery slope implied in such action, that could readily lead to all sorts of intellectual freedom issues.
I would welcome some discussion of this problem on the list. Bernard Katz, U of Guelph Library
Guelph, Ontario
bkatz@uoguelph.ca
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 16:54:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Paul:
I agree with ypur comments in regrds to S. Paulsson's refernce to the "Yad Vashem bunch."
Regards,
Eric Epstein, PSH
From: paulsson@vax.ox.ac.uk
I apologize for my reference to 'the Yad Vashem bunch'. This mailing was intended as a personal response and not for general distribution, and I was speaking informally. Let me put it more properly: there is a school of historiography centering on the historians associated with Yad Vashem which, in my opinion, takes a rather one-sided view of the question of Polish-Jewish relations. There is also a school of Polish historians which takes an equally one-sided view, from the other side. Nothing was meant beyond this.
Steve Paulsson, Oxford.
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Information on the Lodz Ghetto
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
There was an organization -- really a one-person outfit, but he has resources -- that works to distrubute the film LODZ GHETTO, which he developed, as well as the companion volume, LODZ GHETTO: Inside a Community Under Siege. This place might have information for the researcher on the Lodz Ghetto document.
Jewish Heritage Project
150 Franklin Street, #1W
New York, NY 10013
tel: (212) 925-9067
Executive Director, Alan Adelson.
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Document from Lodz Ghetto
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
To Mr. Gaston Schmir:
In regards to the document which I have from the Lodz Ghetto, you ask why
the
writer would write "wir" instead of "mir" in the phrase "Wir senen G. s. D.
Gesund...."
You also assume that the document is written in Roman, not Hebrew alphabet. You are correct.
I can explain both of these features of the document. It is a postcard,
sent
on December 24, 1941. All mail was REQUIRED to be written in German so that
the postal censors (working for the Jewish Council under Chaim Rumkowski)
could examine them before passing them on to the German authorities for
mailing beyond the ghetto. The writer is not fluent in German, and while he
or she knows that the proper German form is "wir", the Yiddish form for
"sind" slips in.
This postcard, by the way, was held back by the censors and never reached
its
destination. It was stamped "Inhalt Unzulaessig". Why? Because in one line
of the text of the card, the writer thanks the addressee for having sent a
newspaper in a recent package. This was strictly forbidden. The sentence
admitting this infraction and the writer's return address are both
underlined
in blue pencil.
Such was the degree of scrutiny, and the degree of isolation, to which the ghetto inhabitants were subjected.
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
Regarding the number of Holocaust survivors living in the United States, it might be worth asking the people at the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors. AMong the group's activities is the compilation of a "National Registry" of Holocaust survivors in the U.S. They have in the past few years amassed a truly massive database, which I believe is now housed and updated out of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. The address of "the Gathering" is:
American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors
122 West 30th Street -- SUite 205
New York NY 10001
From: herb@halcyon.com (Herb Effron)
>> From: JUBRENMAN@JTSA.EDU
>> I am teaching the Holocaust to 6th graders in a Jewish day school in
>> Manhattan. The children will be putting together a service for the
>> school in memory of the victims. Any suggestions on materials?
>>
>> Additionally, a question came up in my class that I have
>> difficulty answering. Following the Holocaust, where did survivors
>> immediately go to? Refugee camps?
>>
>> Julie Brenman Jubrenman@JTSA.EDU
>>
>===========================================
A dramatic example that truth is stranger than fiction comes from Klaus
Stern (in Seattle) who attibutes his _survival_ to typhus.
Many camp survivors died soon after liberation from eating too much, too fast after suffering starvation. When Klaus's camp was liberated, he was too weak to feed himself.
Herb Effron ...for business matters herb@halcyon.com Seagopher, Inc. for personal mail seattle-usa@halcyon.com
From: 6492PHAYERM@vmsa.csd.mu.edu
The museum of the diaspora in Tel Aviv has a wonderful exhibit dealing with
the trek of the survivors from Europe to Israel between 1945-48. Many
survivors
returned to their homes after the war in eastern Europe, only to find there
that their families had been murdered and their homes possessed. So they
then
turned around and made the long journey back to the western zones of
Germany,
most of them to the US zone where they lived in DP camps until departing for
Israel or the US.
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:47:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Teaching the Holocaust to 6th Graders
From: "Sidney Bolkosky" <SBOLKOSK@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu>
At the risk f opening up a difficult and emotional topic, it has always struck me as downright dangerous to present information on the Holocaust to children. One must of necessity simplify the issues, Primo Levi's worst fear (the terrible simplifiers), and to simplify in this case means to omit important, if complicated, information. It means, too, not telling the whole truth, reducing an essentially irreducible subject. It is puzzling and painful enough for adult students to cope with the magnitude of Holocaust studies--the bureaucracies, the professional involvement, the businesses, the ideologies, the bystanders, the horrors and the complications of this tangled history--why, then impose it on youngsters? Sid Bolkosky
From: MrGC616@aol.com
Also, you may want to contact the UNited States Holocvaust Memorial Museum. They have an excellent video called "Daniel's Story" which is geared towards younger children. A wonderful resource. the USHMM is in Washington, D.C. (area code 202) and can be found on the Internet (but I do not know their address at this time). Good luck. George Cassutto, North Hagerstown High School, MD
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Christianization of various death camps
From: "Paul Lawrence Rose" <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Re the Christianization of various death camps, there is a disturbing article in the Jerusalem Post International Edition, 17 September 1994, which indicates that the desceration of Jewish memory is a growing problem. The British historian Martin Gilbert is quoted as saying: " What the Catholic Church is doing is scandalous and grotesque. Only a few months ago I was at Theresienstadt... of the 140,000 human beings who were imprisoned there, 123,500 were Jews...I intend protesting the way a cross has now been raised there...[The] 1917 Treatyof Lausanne [shld] be applied immediately to the Nazi..camps...(According to this] the cemeteries of those who died in war in any country must be...put in the care solely of the families of the dead" - as with British war cemeteries in France and Israel, which are considered British property. Avi Beker (WJC) inten ds to "raise the matter at our next meeting in Mexico". Paul Lawrence Rose, Penn State U PLR2@psuvm
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:27:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Should Holocaust Denier materials be separated from
legitimate works
Marvin Prosono <MAP881F@SMSVMA> wrote:
>I believe one would be perfectly justified in characterizing the >suggestion that certain library materials be kept in special areas >or collections as entirely preposterous. Any library will contain >within it literally thousands of works which have become to be seen >as false. That there are books on witchcraft which are written >with every pretense of seriousness which might in fact convince >naive readers is no reason to remove these works from the shelves >where the <real> knowledge is and place them on shelves with >"pseudo-knowledge." Once this process was begun, where would >it end? Older works of science are no longer true. There are >numerous political, religious and cultural polemics which might >qualify as damnable distortions and hoaxes. All the forces of >political correctness would imagine that their prayers had been >answered if librarians were instructed to create a section for ><works not to be taken seriously>.
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Marvin Prossono's contribution is certainly thought provoking. By chance, does anyone know what the call number of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is? Where would one classify that?
Froma I. Zeitlin
fiz@pucc.princeton.edu
From: stevenk@tmx.mhs.oz.au (Steven King)
Marvin's argument is interesting, but it overlooks some important considerations. It is legitimate to distinguish between knowledges which are discredited or are pseudo-knowledges and have value as historical archives, and knowledges which seek to distort and falsify historical truth for political propaganda purposes. Every act of classification is a process of inclusion and exclusion. Every library classification system uses criteria that distinguish between knowledges. The argument for separating denier material from Holocaust works is not one of differences in opinion (underline opinion) or differences in polemics. The distinction lies in the deliberate falsification of history for motivations that have nothing to do with legitimate historical revisionism, which is an exercise in refining history or revising history in the light of new information. Nor is the argument about censorship for political correctness because some group's feelings may be hurt. The argument is about the use of libraries for purposes of disseminating propaganda disguised as legitimate historical work. The basis of dealing with denier material is not exclusion from the library, but separation from genuine works and appropriate labeling. The problems involved in deciding differences for purposes of library classification are no more and no less here, than for any other subject. Librarians engage in this practice every day. It is a central object of their work and it is what they are trained in. Once it becomes clear what denier material is about, the distinctions become easy. The problem only seems to be a problem to people unfamiliar with the historiography of the Holocaust. Lack of familiarity or appropriate distinguishing criteria make it difficult to draw the lines. To people familiar with Holocaust historiography or denier material there is no problem.
Steven King
stevenk@tmx.mhs.oz.au
My work is in teacher education, and I signed onto this list in large part because of a research interest in race relations in education. In the late 1960s, Jewish teachers in New York, led by ALbert Shanker and the UFT, invoked the holocaust in their campaign against black demands for community control of the schools. While discussion here has not directly addressed the history of invocations of the holocaust, there has been much of interest in my thinking about the topic. In addition, items consistently arise that I use in teaching. The question of library classification was one.
In my course in comtemporary issues in American education, we wrestle with the question of what values can be inculcated in a democratic school system. Although the students have informal notions of right and wrong, they are very reluctant to inculcate any values, claiming that students have a right to make their own choices . . . . This is making me sound like Alan Bloom at the start of the Closing of the American Mind. My politics and values are very different from Bloom's and I therefore am interested in trying to figure out why most of my students, who are not anti-Semites, who accept that the holocaust occured, are so very reluctant to separate the books of deniers. My sense is that they have very rarely heard any political morality articulated except the right-wing moral majority one which they reject and a market-like pro-choice one. With the decline of a forward-thinking and -moving liberalism from public debate, choice, the rhetorical device to justify for instance women's right to sovereignty of their bodies, is applied to curricular or cateloguing decisions.
I am convinced that my students would discourage a
separate classification number in part because they do not seriously
consider the plausibility of the deniers arguments. Still, when
they think about the issue, their ideas are shaped by the
narrowness of space in which to engage in moral action which they
see, a narrowness which has been handed to them. I have taken
many of the messages from the cateloguing discussion on this list
for my students to use in their discussions. I though others
might be interested in the lens through which they look at our discusssion.
Dan Perlstein
Education Dept.
Vassar College
From: MrGC616@aol.com
I favor the labelling of such material as Holocaust Denial Literature. There is no implied denegration of such material designated as such (although the denegration can be construed by those who are wise to it). Under the 1st Amendment, the literature can not and should not be censored, but discussed in an open academic forum. Thank you for your time. George Cassutto.
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 12:42:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: JUREK@vaxph.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de
"David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu> writes:
``Within a few distinctly Polish circles, however, there is a great sensitivity to any focus upon the Poles as contributing to (not _collaborating with_) the elimination of Polish Jews.''
Let me comment on this starting with a quote. The quote describes the situation of Jews hiding during the Nazi occupation:
"There is, in fact, not a single Jewish survivor who went into hiding and did not have a narrow escape. Some persons were forced to move to over a dozen different places to keep them out of reach of the authorities. There were also those who agreed to hide Jews only in return for exorbitant amounts of payment, then showed their charges to the door when the money ran out. () there was danger of betrayal by informers, those ideologically sympathetic with Nazism and those motivated by greed and ready to sell out anyone in return for ransom payment."''
Although one might expect the above quote to describe the situation of a Jew hiding in Poland, the point is that it concerns __Holland__. (It is taken from Mordechai Paldiel's "The Path of the Righteous. Gentile Rescuers of Jews During the Holocaust" (Hoboken: KTAV Publishing House, 1993) p. 97.) As Steve Paulsson already mentioned, there were more similarities between the fate of the Jews in Poland and Holland, and Poland does not come out bad in such comparison, or vice versa: Holland does not come out that good.
Coming back to the `distinctly Polish circles' I don't think these circles, except nationalistic ones, refuse reasonable discussion of the misdeeds and crimes committed by the Poles on Jews during WWII. I think, however, that any Polish circles object to arbitrary, selective and unjust accusations. After all, one does not hear very often of a `moral issue' of Holland and the Dutch contributing to the elimination of Dutch Jews even if that contribution was at least comparable if not significantly higher than that of Poland and the Poles regarding Polish Jews.
Steve Paulsson already addressed most of these problems but I can add that the `distinctly Polish circles' also resent the feeling of moral superiority which too often emanates from the `distinctly Jewish circles'. Rabbi Leon Klenicki took issue with this problem and called it `triumphalism of pain' (see "Studium Papers", vol. 13 no. 2, April 1989). I think it is far better for the general climate of discussion if each side contemplates its own moral issues, as does for example Michnik's newspaper, "Gazeta Wyborcza" in numerous articles.
Regards,
J. Remigioni
Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Translations and Differring Opinions
From: JUREK@vaxph.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de
In his response to my criticism of his translation Mr. Meier says that "accusations regarding the accuracy of my translation of Helga Hirsch's article in Die Zeit deserve to be commended and condemned."
I would be glad to accept the commendation, but must, in order to forestall the threatened condemnation, provide additional proof that my judgment -- "Readers of Mr. M.'s translation should be aware that they cannot rely on it accurately to reflect the original article" -- is entirely justified.
Let us recall Mr. Meier's own words in his original posting: "I hope I have provided a reasonable translation."
"Translation" is the key word. His is not a reasonable one by any criterion, least of all that of accuracy.
In his version the original text is distorted, its meaning changed diametrically, misattributed, it is muddled up who said what. Some text which does not exist in Hirsch's article is quoted, in inverted commas, as if it had appeared there.
The errors begin right at the start of his essay; they continue to the very end, and are too numerous to list here. I shall only give examples drawn from all parts of his text.
Contrary to Mr. Meier's assertions:
"a young Polish journalist." "Ein junger polnischer Journalist" obviously refers to a male, in this case Michal Cichy.
their parents...," but, according to Hirsch, did not respect their "taboos."
the Germans." She wrote: "Poland remained a land without collaboration."
the murder of Jews by AK. Hirsch wrote that the Union of AK Soldiers indignantly asserted that "only isolated, hardened blackmailers in the Polish Underground would persecute the Jews."
while Meier has it as "... the AK murdered better than a dozen Jews." Would it have been fair to blame the entire US Army for the action of Lt. Calley and his men in Vietnam?
("Hal" deserves an essay dealing just with his actions; he
murdered Jews, Christians, civilians, AK soldiers, including
some from his own unit.)
6. It's not: "Smolar ... believed that during the Nazi occupation
Polish anti-Semitism largely disappeared from the streets
as well as from the underground press, political parties, and
military units." Quite the contrary, Helga Hirsch quoted him as
saying that it "thrived" there.
7. It's not: "... he informed the Polish police..." Hirsch says:
"die
Gendarmerie," which was a a German, not a Polish, organization.
8. Hirsch did not write: "Gen. Grot- Rowecki indicated ... that
the overwhelming majority of Poles were fundamentally
anti-Semitic." She wrote of "anti-Semitic disposition," and
did not say "fundamentally."
9. She does not have Ignatz Bubis state that "Jewish members
of the AK seemed reluctant to deal with the issue ... '
They would have endangered the AK's image [had they spoken
out]' ..."
There is nothing even remotely like it in Hirsch's text.
She has Mr. Bubis quote Bartoszewski as saying: "They would
have endangered us because of their appearance."
Bartoszewski was giving a reason for the Underground's
reluctance to allow the Jews to enlist.
Mr. Meier gets everything totally wrong here.
10. Nowhere does Hirsch say, or even imply, that former
members of AK were ever put on trial because they were
Jewish. Though Hirsch can make a bad mistake, (she credited
the Jews with the greatest number of Yad Vashem medals),
she did not commit the howler Meier says she did.
11. It's not: "Among a small circle of Polish academicians the
number of victims is still being debated."; Hirsch says
precisely the opposite: "the facts ... are no longer debated."
12. It's not: "The discussion is becoming increasingly virulent..."
It's the anti-Semitism which is " still virulent," says Hirsch.
Mr. Meier's reference to English not being my native tongue is churlish and irrelevant; his attribution of offended sensitivity a red herring.
Anybody, and especially Ms. Hirsch, should object to Mr. Meier's treatment of her article. Why? Because not every reader of a translation will also read the original text, and it is well known that mistranslations acquire a life of their own and continue to be quoted by subsequent writers. The truth is ill-served by such errors.
Sincerely,
J. Remigioni
Stuttgart, Germany
P.S.
I shall provide any disputed German text for those who cannot find it in the library.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: "Legacy of Polish Jewry" - Conference.
From: tkgierym@k-vector.chem.washington.edu (Tadeusz K. Gierymski)
"Legacy of Polish Jewry"
International Conference - Revised Schedule
Saturday, October 8:
Reception at the home of Irene and Richard Pipes.
Sunday, October 9:
9.00-9.15 Introduction, Antony Polonsky; 9.15-10.30 Hasidism as a Reflection of Jewish Spirituality,
Arthur Green;
11.00-12.15 Legacy of Yiddish Literature in Poland, David Roskies;
12.15-200 Lunch
2.00-3.15 The Interpenetration of Two Literary Worlds:
Interactions between Jewish and Polish Writers,
Jadwiga Mauerer and Michael Steinlauf;
3.15-3.30 Tea
3.30-5.30 Inheriting the Polish-Jewish Past: Envisaging its
Future: a Round Table discussion, Jan Blonski, Zbigniew
Brzezinski, Israel Gutman, Jan Karski, Allan Nadler,
Magda Opalska, Michael Stanislawski and Jerzy Toma-
szewski;
7.30 Reception and Dinner, Yiddish and Polish Multi-
culturalism in Folk and Popular Culture, Robert Rothstein;
Monday, October 10:
Trip to New Hampshire to view fall foliage at its height.
Lunch hosted by Mr. and Mrs. Charles Merrill in Hancock, NH.
Conference will be held in Harvard-Radcliffe Hillel's new building at 52 Mt. Auburn Street, Cambridge.
Addditional information from:
American Association for Polish-Jewish Studies
1583 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge
MA 02138
tel. (617) 547-7701
Tadeusz K. Gierymski
<tkgierym@k-vector.chem.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Books by Rudolf Vrba (& the Vrba-Wetzler Report)
From: "Connelly, William" <wconnelly@ushmm.org>
This is in response to the posting requesting
information as to whether or not the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum Bookstore offers Rudolf
Vrba's book _I cannot forgive_.
As this book has gone in and out of print a number
of times, with a number of publishers, and under a
number of different titles (including _I cannot
forgive_ and _Escape from Auschwitz_), persons
wishing to obtain a copy might be best advised to
contact the Bookstore directly care of the
Museum's main number: 202/488-0400. This is
particularly advised for those who may have
retrieved this posting via a HOLOCAUS-L
postings archives.
The earliest version that I have seen of what is
also commonly known nowadays as the "Vrba-Wetzler
Report", was distributed by the War Refugee Board
in 1944 under the title-header _Extermination
Camps of Auschwitz (Oswiecim) and Birkenau in
Upper Silesia_. In this report, both Vrba's and
Wetzler's names are withheld out of concern for
possible Nazi reprisals against each of their
families. They are only referred to as "two young
Czechs". The U.S. Holocaust Research Institute
Library has a bound photocopy of this report in
its collection. (The original is available in the
National Archives, so please DO NOT request copies
from me. Please contact the legal repository.)
In closing, I should note that Mr. Vrba visited
the Research Institute as a speaker a couple of
months back during our conference on the events
of fifty years ago in Hungary.
With Regards,
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| WCONNELLY@USHMM.ORG |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| William Connelly |
| U.S. Holocaust Research Institute Library |
| 100 Raoul Wallenberg Pl., S.W. |
| Washington, D.C. 20024-2150 |
| Voice (202) 488-6109 |
| Fax (202) 479-9726 |
|______________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:12:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Need to locate a review of Auschwitz: A History in Photographs
From: Kevin Lewis <KELEWIS@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
I am new to the list, and so may have missed mention of this. But has anyone seen a review or reviews in English of the compilation of photographs edited by Teresa Swiebocka, _Auschwitz: Zbrodnia przeciwko ludzkosci_ (1990), or of the 1993 English edition, _Auschwitz: A History in Photographs_, prepared by Jonathan Webber and Connie Wilsack?
And, in addition to the English edition published by Indiana Univ Press and Ksiazka i Wiedza (Warsaw), is there also perhaps a simultaneous issue in the UK?
My interest: I have accepted an assignment to review the book for the _Scottish Photography Bulletin_, and would like to know how the collection has been received so far.
Thanks,
Kevin Lewis
kelewis@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:52:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Rescue of Turkish Jews
From: "Shaw, Stanford HISTORY" <Shaw@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu>
In my recent monograph 'Turkey and the Holocaust,' (New York U.Press, 1992)
I
showed how Turkish diplomats in Paris rescued some 3,000 Turkish Jews from
the Nazis and from Vichy during the Holocaust (in addition to some 100,000
East European Jews who passed through Turkey on their way to Palestine). All
of this was based on materials in the archives of the Turkish Embassy and
Consulate in Paris, with supplementary information from French, German and
American archives. Now I have received information that 105 Turkish Jews
were
freed from Bergen Belsen in March 1945 and sent to Sweden, from which they
were transported to Turkey a month later on a Swedish ship. Does anyone have
any additional information about this? Why was it done? Who was involved?
For
that matter, does any member of this forum know any of the Turkish Jews who
were rescued, either in this group or among the 3,000 Turkish Jews who were
sent from Paris to Turkey between 1943 and 1945? I would appreciate any
information you may have. Stanford Shaw, Professor of Turkish and
Judeo-Turkish History, University of California Los Angeles.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:52:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Anne Frank html change of address
From: THOMPSON@acad.lvc.edu
F Y I: The WWW address for the Anne Frank html has been changed to the following:
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/tdnguyen/Anne_Frank.html
NOTE: This address is "case specific" ... If Anne Frank is not capitalized, connecting will be impossible.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Holocaust studies
From: Gary S Weissman <weissman@csd.uwm.edu>
Can anyone provide citations for articles or essays on 'Holocaust studies' as a field, on the state of Holocaust studies, etc.? I am wondering when the term came into use and how Holocaust studies as an academic field has been written about. Any information would be most appreciated.
Gary Weissman
weissman@csd.uwm.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:42:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Change in Text
From: Jonathan Morse <jmorse@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
It's an old story, Nadine. Eudora Welty's short story "Why I Live at the P.O." is frequently reprinted in college anthologies, for instance, and quite often it appears in a bowdlerized version in which every occurrence of the word "nigger" is changed to "Negro" or simply deleted--an act of timidity that incidentally makes the ending of the story incomprehensible. It always reminds me of the time I saw the old movie _The Out-of-Towners_ on an airplane, and the punchline "This airplane is being hijacked to Cuba" was replaced by a moment of silence on the soundtrack, mysteriously followed by Sandy Dennis's cry "Oh my God," followed by the closing credits.
Note that I said COLLEGE anthologies, not high school anthologies--for instance, _The Harper American Literature_, at least in its earlier editions. (I haven't looked at it recently.)
Closer to home, Bantam once published an allegedly "complete and unabridged" edition of Hemingway's _The Sun Also Rises_ from which all the antisemitic language had been removed.
_The Merchant of Venice_, anyone?
Jonathan Morse
Dept. of English, University of Hawaii
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:47:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Teaching the Holocaust to 6th Graders
From: David Dickerson <ddickerson@igc.apc.org>
In response to Julie Brenman's (JUBRENMAN@JTSA.EDU) query about teaching the Holocaust to sixt grade students, George Cassutto (MrGC616@aol.com) replies:
> Also, you may want to contact the UNited States > Holocvaust Memorial Museum. They have an excellent video > called "Daniel's Story" which is geared towards younger > children. A wonderful resource. the USHMM is in > Washington, D.C. (area code 202) and can be found on the > Internet (but I do not know their address at this time).
The Gonda Educational Resource Center at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is indeed a very valuable resource for teachers. Also, Julie, a visit to the "Daniel's Story" exhibit at the Museum would be a very good experience for your class, if you are located near the Washington, DC area.
To request a packet of the teacher materials, you can contact the Museum at the following address:
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
Educational Resource Center
100 Raoul Wallenberg Place, SW
Washington, DC 20024-2150
Phone: 202-488-0400
Fax: 202-488-2690
You can also request the teacher pack via e-mail:
Cordially,
David Dickerson
From: M_BURKE@prime.delta.edu
In response to the concerns of Sid Bolkosky about teaching the Holocaust to sixth graders:
I understand the concerns of what oversimplification can do to young minds; however, sixth graders are more than ready to hear of the Holocaust.
In the late 1960's, I remember vividly my sixth grade teacher , Mr.
Rafferty,
telling of Hitler and his atrocities. He showed films of Hitler and
explained how he rallied the German people to his cause. He told the story
of Anne Frank. He had her diary in his classroom library which later
became the most popular book in the classroom to read. (In fact, I never
had a chance to read her diary until this past summer because I was never
lucky enough to get to the copy
first when I was in sixth grade.)
I do not remember many of the details he told about the camps, if he told
any.
But I do remember his emphasis on how horrible this was to have happened
and how we must be aware of people who held such attitudes of hate toward a
specific group.
Did he oversimplify? I don't know. I know I could understand his
compassion
and his feeling that it was a story that all should know.
I did not hear of the Holocaust in my American history class or my world history class in the high school of that community. I did not hear of it again until college in a humanities class. Many of my elementary classmates did not attend college. Most missed the history in high school. They may have never heard the story had it not been for him.
This man was not Jewish--neither was my hometown community. He drew
criticism
from many parents who felt that he should not be telling such "tales." My
hometown, a
working-class home of autoworkers near Detroit, was not the most
open-minded community, yet this man persisted year after year to tell the
story. He played an important role in my education and in the education of
my community.
I would hate for educators not to tell a story because of the difficulty of relating it to young children. They must hear this young, or they may be too old to understand its importance if we wait for them to grow up.
RE: Sidney Bolkosky's concern about teaching children about the Holocaust--
I think that Mr. Bolkosky raises a very important point, one concerning an
issue with which I myself struggle. Though I am very heavily involved in
Holocaust Studies, and though I expect my students (they are college-age) to
engage themselves deeply and seriously with this subject matter, I tend to
protect my two youngest children from knowing too much about this event.
Perhaps I've simply heard too many horrifying stories from the survivors
whom I've interviewed; perhaps I've read too much; perhaps I've seen too
many
documentaries; I don't know. What I do know is that each time that I visit
the private collection of Holocaust "materials"/"artifacts" belonging to a
survivor to whose exhibit I take my classes each semester, I tell myself
that, perhaps now, at least my ten-year-old would be ready to see this
exhibit. And then she reminds me that she's not yet ready to see it. And
then I go to the exhibit, view the "materials"/"artifacts" on hand, and
spend
a good deal of time talking with the survivor in question. And then I
realize that this is not a subject matter that I want to involve my children
in beyond what they themselves seem ready to handle.
Please understand that I don't say any of this as if I have any answers
about
the right course of action to take. The fact is, I'm not sure what to do.
I'd appreciate hearing from others in this discussion group who struggle
with this issue.
From: Hank.Greenspan@um.cc.umich.edu
Just a reflection on teaching the Holocaust to kids--
I wonder if part of the issue isn't what everyone used to say about sex--that they are going to hear about it anyway, particularly in our trauma/abuse obsessed culture, so shouldn't we try to teach it "in the right way."
But what is that? Staying with the analogy above, I can certainly remember my own "secret times"--age 10, age ll--with the books, the pictures, even fragments of the memoirs. No doubt this was true of many others also on this list. In retrospect, I am not sure how I would rank what I learned in that strange, terrified, individual way-- private about what was so immensely public--with what I might have learned in someone's "program." I'm genuinely not sure.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:52:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Rescue of Turkish Jews
From: "Paul Lawrence Rose" <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Prof. Shaw might be interested in looking at the "Kushta" papers in the
Archive of Kibbutz Lochamei ha Ghettaot near Akko, Israel. These are
strictly
speaking the records of the Zionist rescue missions in Istanbul, but they
may also
contain material on Turkish Jews. They do include a great deal on the
Hungarian
rescue attempts of 1944 (Cf my article in the 1990 Historical Journal on
Joel bra
nd). P L Rose, Penn State U PLR2@PSUVM
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 13:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Three questions for list members
From: RJPrys@aol.com
I have three questions that I would very much appreciate receiving answers to.
Thanks, everyone!
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:22:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: POWER <power@actcom.co.il>
I am unaware of the work of present Polish historians of anti-semitistm. I would appreciate references. In particular, I am interested if any research was done on the pogrom in Kielce shortly after the war. I believe that a detailed research of this event may shed some light on the question of relations between Jews and Poles. At the time it occured there was no danger any more of saving Jews, vice versa there a threat of heavy punishment on those who killed them. Still the massacre took place. I believe that the government archives on this matter are now available to the public.
Aharon Meytahl
Unless I'm mistaken, the number of Jews killed in Holland was greater than the number killed anywhere else except for Poland. I've talked with several survivors from Holland who express no desire to return there.
Also, weren't there more rescuers from Poland than from anywhere else (save, obviously, from Denmark)?
On the other hand, a number of survivors with whom I've spoken have told stories about survivors hiding in Poland being hunted and killed by the Polish Resistance after the war ended.
Still, as we all know, the antisemitism continuing to emanate from Poland is overwhelming.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: What happened to survivors right after the Holocaust
From: SBRANDON@alex.stkate.edu
IN RESPONSE TO JULIE BRENMAN'S INQUIRY AS TO WHERE SURVIVORS IMMEDIATELY WENT AFTER THE HOLOCAUST, MY HUSBAND, PAUL SLATON, WANTS ME TO INFORM YOU THAT MANY SURVIVORS (INCLUDING SOME FRIENDS OF OURS) WERE SENT TO SWEDEN TO RECUPERATE.
Sue Brandon
From: RonB2000@aol.com
With regards to where people went after the camps....
Many people just walked home from the camps. Auschwitz survivors liberated
by the Russians often just traveled west till home. My father who survived
Mauthausen did not make it home to Hungary till August...walking through the
Austrian mountains.
ronb2000@aol.com
Sender: "RonB2000" <RonB2000@aol.com>
Many, many survivors died after suddenly eating what was relatively too much
legitimate works in libraries?
From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Froma Zeitlin asks about the library classification of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. In the Yale library catalog, I find editions of the Protocols in French, Polish, Arabic, Japanese, Ukrainian, Portugese, and English, as well as books about the Protocols all with call numbers starting with DS145. There are some exceptions, however. One book about the Protocols has call number DS117, another D639, and a Hungarian publication has DS141. Finally, a number of older editions are classified in the Yale Judaica Collection with call numbers beginning with Bg20r. The latter group, however, probably represents an example of the idiosyncratic Yale library classification scheme. It is only in the last 20 years or so that Yale began to adopt the Library of Congress scheme.
From: Marvin Prosono <MAP881F%SMSVMA@uicvm.uic.edu>
Some very interesting and constructive points have been made with respect to separating denier materials from legitimate works. I would like to add a codicil to my earlier posting after reading these comments. My original points were aimed at any attempt to physically separate denier materials to some special storage or holding area. A distinct call number would be most appropriate. This would organize these materials for those who wish to contend with them and prevent their being mistaken for works by those who are truly grappling with the Holocaust.
Nonetheless, there are still serious problems in inclusion. Although Steven King's comments are powerful and well taken, I would like to raise some difficulties in what he seems to suggest is a fairly straightforward process. First of all where would something like Deborah Lipstadt's book go <Denying the Holocaust> once reclassification took place? This book is, of course, not a book promoting denial, but what I have recently characterized in a paper as "antidenial." One would imagine it would be catalogued along with works on denial. Those looking for works denying the Holocaust might then be met with her work and that of others which attempt to refute denial. (A nice irony.)
In terms of including works with deniers, Steven King states: <The distinction lies in the deliberate falsification of <history for motivations that have nothing to do with <legitimate historical revisionism. . . He goes on to suggest that there is little problem in distinguishing between legitimate and illegitimate works.
When I taught at San Francisco State, their library had in its reference section next to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Britannica, et al., the Great Soviet Encyclopedia. If that work does not qualify as a deliberate falsification in great part, I do not what know does. No separate call number as far as I can recall.
One more difficulty. It would seem that a separate call number could easily contain those works which identify themselves as engaging in denial. Here I would agree we might encounter little problem. What about those who do not deny, but engage in provocative forms of revisionism? I am thinking in particular of Ernst Nolte and Andreas Hillgruber and others involved in the Historikerstreit. How much denial would qualify a work to be placed in the new section? What about Pressac's book. He had been drawn into denier circles but then found reason to change his mind. He is still very much a maverick from what I understand. There are many who are unhappy with him and his work and would probably consider him suitable for inclusion. This is not an easy problem to solve and should be approached with great sensitivity.
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 15:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Living Holocaust Survivors
From: Leo.Spitzer@Dartmouth.EDU (Leo Spitzer)
The person who would be able to provide you with the best estimate of the number of Holocaust survivors is Dr. Radu Ioanid, Director, Registry of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, US Holocaust Research Institute, US Holocaust Memorial Museum.
From: David A Hirsch <david@iowalaw.com>
Regarding the following posted by Harold Marcuse:
> Having interviewed a fair number of people who saw/visited > concentration camps shortly after liberation, I've > observed a curious phenomenon: people tend to take the > best-known name of a camp, or the name of the camp in > which the interviewer is interested, and narrate their > story in terms of that camp. In most cases, it turns > out that they experienced a sub-camp (Aussenlager). A > liberator of Ohrdruf will tell how he liberated > Buchenwald, or a liberator of Landsberg will tell how he > was one of the first to enter Dachau. I wouldn't be > surprised if your ex-boss didn't try to approach one of > the camps in northern Germany (between Bergen-Belsen, > Neuengamme, and Ravensbrueck, roughly, where many of the > evacuations ended), or in the Austrian-German border > region (axis Mauthausen-Dachau, ditto for the south). > Auschwitz had been cleaned up before liberation, and > certainly long before an American driving a jeep might > have approached it the appalling stench would have > dissipated, while there were many stinking hell-holes > much closer to Berlin/Potsdam, in April and even well > into May 1945.
Interesting points. It shows how desirable it is to really "cross-examine" and "pump" witnesses. Dick died a year and a half ago, so follow-up is impossible.
However in connection with this visit, Dick commented on having to drive a
long distance. He also commented on going into territory under Russian
control. Since this was something he went to specifically, not something he
stumbled on, I would tend to think he would remember where he was going. I
am
in the process of searching his writings to see if there is any further
documentation of this, but am not optimistic I will find any references to
the
visit. Most of his writings concentrate on Potsdam.
David A. Hirsch
Beckman, Hirsch & Ell Telephone: 319-754-8404 314 North Fourth Fax: 319-754-6302 Burlington, IA 52601 david@iowalaw.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 15:42:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: The Terms "Shoah" and "Holocaust"
From: SCOTT DENHAM <SCDENHAM@DAVIDSON.EDU>
On Holocaust terminology:
Just to complicate things . . . Let's not forget Arno Mayer's term
"judeocide," in his _Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? The "Final Solution" in
History_ (NY,1989).
Scott Denham, Davidson College
From holoweb@h-net.msu.edu Thu Aug 22 14:21:44 1996
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:20:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu>
To: HOLOCAUS Gopherspace <holoweb@h-net.msu.edu>
Subject: log 9409d
>From LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU Mon Aug 12 22:24:25 1996 Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.50]) by h-net.msu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA26050 for <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:54:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199608121854.OAA26050@h-net.msu.edu> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
with BSMTP id 8807; Mon, 12 Aug 96 13:53:45 CDT Received: from UICVM.UIC.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6056; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:37 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UICVM (1.8b)" <LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU> Subject: File: "HOLOCAUS LOG9409D" To: H-NET Help <help@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 10:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Three Questions for List Members
>2) I'm reading Jean-Francois Steiner's book Treblinka (trans. by Helen
>Weaver). Except for the dialogues, which, according to Simone de Beauvoir
>in her "Preface" to the book), have been "reconstructed," is this book
>considered a fairly reliable source on the history and inner workings of
this
>death camp?
Richard, Regarding Steiner's *Treblinka*: the book was very
controversial after it was published in French. Several survivors, I
think, sued him and demanded their names be removed from the text.
Steiner did remove and/or change names in the English edition. Alvin
Rosenfeld regarded the book as exploitive and inaccurate. However, I
have used it in courses on the history of the Holocaust with good
results, i.e. students respond thoughtfully and often powerfully to
the book. As far as I can tell, if one compares the histories of
Treblinka and documents and personal accounts with what Steiner
writes, they are commensurable. His descriptions are often
overwhelming yet with an icy objectivity that is calculated to
imitate that of the "Technicians." He would definitely be usable
with such authors as Arendt, Sereny and Hilberg, with the appropriate
caveats about literature and this particular loose use of narrative.
Sid Bolkosky
UM-Dearborn
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
I can come in on question 2, re Steiner's Treblinka. I have only seen it
dispraised in the materials I read for its inaccuracies and distortions.
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Anne Frank html difficulties
From: thompson@acad.lvc.edu
>
> http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/tdnguyen/Anne_Frank.html
>
To Jim and other interested parties: I was informed by one of the
cybermavens
at the Univ of Washington that Anne Frank would likely be unavailable today
because of some mainframe modifications there. The probablity seems to have
become a certainty.
From: holo@kg6kf.ampr.org (Holocaust Center--San Francisco)
>
> From: mskerem@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il (yitzchak kerem)
>
> Try contacting Tori Blatt in Santa Barbara. He's a Sobibor survivor. He
amde a
> film about Sobibor and also took part in the film Escape from Sobibor. I
wrote
> in the Jerusalem Post several years ago about the monastery at Sobibor
and how
> it descrates the memory of the Jews who persihed there.
> Yitzchak Kerem
>
We believe that Tom Blatt moved from Santa Barbara to Seattle where he seems to be active in Holocaust education.
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Conference on Hungary 50 Years Ago
From: SZELITCH@delphi.com
In a recent message, there was mention of a conference on Hungary and the Holocaust at the museum in Washington. Did any new material come out of the conference, and where is it available? Through the museum?
Thanks,
Simone Zelitch
szelitch@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 12:37:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Polish Rescue of Jews
From: GRONDEJO@LANMAIL.SHU.EDU
Responding to claims about relations between rescue of Jews in Denmark and Poland:
Among all nationalities, Poles are the most numerous among the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem, even though only in Poland--among all Nazi-occupied countries--was any assistance to Jews a capital crime. There is also increasing scholarly evidence that the Danish exmission of Jews to Sweden was not as altruistic as it might have first seemed. Finally, I would also caution against simplistic comparisons among occupied countries. Danish Jews were a tiny minority highly assimilated into the larger society; Polish Jews constituted 10% of the pre-war population and constituted a distinct, unassimilated minority. Concealing 8,000 largely assimilated people is much different than 3,000,000 unassimilated people, esp. when Nordic Denmark's native population fell within the groups of Untermenschen Nazi racial ideology extolled, while Polish Slavs obviously did not.
If you are interested in assistance of Polish clergy to Jews during World War II, contact a researcher in this field at the Catholic University of Lublin (who speaks English): Prof. Zygmunt Zielinski, Ul. Niecala 8/90, 20-080 Lublin Poland. Tel from US 011-48-81-287-30.
(DR) John Grondelski
Associate Dean, School of Theology
Seton Hall University, NJ
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:22:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need help in tracing sources
From: Ron Zweig <ron@ccsg.tau.ac.il>
Two questions which colleagues here might be able to help with:
(i) I am trying to trace (preferrably purchase) a copy of the publication (published by the CIA, Washington DC, 1979) by Brugioni, D and Poirier, R, entitled "The Holocaust Revisited: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex". Is this still in print?
(ii) does anyone have a postal address for the US Air Force Historical Research Center?
Thanks,
Ron Zweig
Tel Aviv University
ron@ccsg.tau.ac.il
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:47:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Anne Frank html
From: THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU
As of 1.25 pm EDT today, I was able to access the Anne Frank html.
Editor note: I was able to access if too .
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:32:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Entartete Music Retrospective at Brandeis U, Oct 2 - Nov 9 ,1994
From: "LINDA E. ROST" <ROST@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY
AND
THE TEREZIN CHAMBER MUSIC FOUNDATION
PRESENT
"SILENCED VOICES": Music banned by the NAZIS
An exhibition and lecture/concert series at Brandeis University October 2 - November 9, 1994
The Exhibit "Entartete Musik: Music Banned by the Nazis"
can viewed in the Goldfarb Library, level 2
Sunday Opening Program and Reception
October 2 Levin Ballroom, Usdan Student Center
at 2:00 p.m. [Hindemith, Krasa, Schulhoff, Webern]
Sunday Silenced Voices: Music From the Holocaust October 16 Slosberg Recital Hall
at 3:00 p.m. [Klein, Haas, Krasa, Ullmann]
Wednesday The Holocaust Remembered in Song October 19 Rapaporte Treasure Hall, Goldfarb Library at noon [Yiddish Songs] Monday Violin Recital October 24 Rapaporte Treasure Hall, Goldfarb Library
at 7:30 p.m. [Dauber, Bartok, Bloch, Hindemith, Schulhoff]
Tuesday Woodwind Chamber Music Concert November 1 Rapaporte Treasure Hall, Goldfarb Library
at 7:30 p.m. [Branfels, Eisler, Haas, Hindemith, Milhaud, Zemlinsky]
Wednesday Kristallnacht: Night of Broken Glass Memorial November 9 Slosberg Recital Hall
at 7:30 p.m. [Convery, Ullmann]
All Programs are free and open to the public. For more information on concerts and related activities, please call 617-736-4718. Brandeis University is located on South Street in Waltham, Massachusetts and can be reached via Route 30 or Route 20 off of Route 128.
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Conference on Survivors
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
REPRINTED FROM 'the amcha link" AUGUST 1994
INTERNATIONAL REPRESENTATION AT JERUSALEM CONFERENCE OVER 70 MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS WHO WORK WITH HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THEIR CHILDREN IN 17 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES GATHERED IN JERUSALEM ON JULY 3, 4 AND 6 FOR THE FIRST TIME TO DISCUSS THEIR CLINICAL WORK AND RESEARCH. THE INSTITUTE ON WORKING WITH HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THE SECOND GERNERATION
Editor Note: Does anyone know where subscribers might be able to obtain a report on the conference?
Jim Mott
Holocaus Moderator
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:42:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Polish Rescue of Jews
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
I would like to point out that by the time of the outbreak of World War II,
there was a significant number of Jews who were assimilated into Polish
society, who knew no Yiddish, spoke only Polish, were not observant, and
some had even converted. There were those who passionately wanted to belong
to Polish life, participated in politics, supported Polish nationalism,
were trained in the Polish army and fought for Poland, to say nothing
of Jewish students enrolled in Polish universities. There were JewishPolish
writers, artists, poets, musicians, etc. To say that Jews
were a large 'unassimilated' minority is also to suggest that the
substantial
contingent of Jews who desired to be assimilated into Polish life and
culture
and to enjoy the privileges of all Polish citizens was itself not
acceptable.
The range and variety of Jewish life in Poland in the interwar years should
not be ignored or its import disregarded.
Froma I. Zeitlin
fiz@pucc.princeton.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:37:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: What happened to survivors right after the Holocaust
From: Bernard Kouchel <koosh@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
IN RESPONSE TO JULIE BRENMAN'S INQUIRY AS TO WHERE SURVIVORS IMMEDIATELY WENT AFTER THE HOLOCAUST.
>From the oral history of an uncle, who with his family, survived with the Bielski fighters in the forests of Byelorussia;-
He, spouse and two children returned home to Lida in 1944 and found no buildings left there. They then traveled to Lodz, and thereafter to Ulm, Germany for five months, before coming to France in 1946 (to join other family members).
+---------------------------------------------+
| Bernard Kouchel JGSBCFL Fidonet: 1:369/68 |
| Internet: koosh@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us |
Jewish Genealogical Society Broward Co. FL
From: RJPrys@aol.com
"RonB2000" brings up an important (and tragic) point, one that Elie Wiesel alludes to at the end of NIGHT and in the video interview with him called A Portrait of Elie Wiesel: In the Shadow of Flames.
I recall hearing an American liberator talk about his feelings of intense guilt (which he still bears) when he realized that he and fellow liberators had inadvertantly killed survivors of Dachau after having given them some of their food.
If anyone knows of a good article or book on this general topic, would
she/he
please let me know?
Thanks--
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:42:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Protocols of the Elders of Zion
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
It would be of interest and value for all people on this conference to see if and how the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION -- sometimes called the PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION, or some other variation -- are listed in their university and municipal libraries, as well as on such scholarly databases/catalogues as RLIN, OCLC, etc.
Arieh Lebowitz
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:42:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: FW: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from
legitimate works in libraries?
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Is there not a difference between the Historikerstreit folks (who may be distorting history, offering different emphases and speculations) and the deniers who are actually falsifying history by creating what Amos Funkenstein calls a 'counter-history.' (he has an excellent article on the topic and on the historical cases of 'counter-histories' in Saul Friedlander's edited collection on the Holocaust (and representation; the name escapes me for the moment). Having started this discussion, I have been following the different reactions and arguments, but I still worry about legitimizing deniers by giving them a place next to 'real' Holocaust materials. As for Lipstadt and others discussing the topic, shouldn't that remain among the Holocaust material and interested readers would be able to look up the works she and others mention.
Thank you, Gaston Shmir, for the posting on the Protocols. My purpose in asking was in fact to ascertain how a notorious forged document fares in the LC system, and esp. what is its context? DS I think is antiSemitism, which would be quite appropriate.
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Teaching the Holocaust to 6th Graders
From: RJPrys@aol.com
An addendum to my first reply--
A number of my students have said either that they had never heard anything
(or that they had heard very little) about the Holocaust until they entered
college (one, last semester, even told me that she had never connected
Hitler
to the Holocaust until she saw the film Genocide in my class) or that they
had learned inaccurate (and sometimes dangerously inaccurate) information,
in
school and/or elsewhere.
Also, one survivor told me that he had never said much to his children about the Holocaust in large part because he felt that it was the school's responsibility to teach them about this topic.
Perhaps I should separate my concerns about teaching my own children about
the Holocaust from the larger question of whether or not elementary school
teachers (for example) should be teaching this subject matter to their
students. I fully support Holocaust Education in the schools (I've even
done
a small amount of consulting work with a few high school teachers), as long
as it's carried out well. That, I guess, is the central issue at stake
here?
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:47:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Should Holocaust Denier Materials be separated from legitimate
works in libraries?
From: stevenk@tmx.mhs.oz.au (Steven King)
Marvin Prosono drew out some important issues in distinguishing denier material from legitimate Holocaust historiography. Mainstream denier material is easy to separate, but works like Ernst Nolte and Andreas Hillgruber are more problematic.
The idea behind the Historikerstreit school is not a denial of the Holocaust, but a relativisation of it. The sense that these historians deal with Germany, is by depicting the Holocaust as an overdetermined event viz Nolte's famous portrayal that the Holocaust is but a footnote in history. Or by depicting the Holocaust as an aberration, that is, that Germany was perfectly normal before the WWII, had a brief 'schizophrenic' outbreak, and returned to normal after the war. Or by reversing the roles and portraying Germany as the victim acting in a defensive capacity, that is, (a) using the moral equivalence argument to equate the allied treatment of Germany and the treatment of Jews ie that Germany was the victim of an 'attempted Genocide', and (b) that Germany acted defensively in persecuting the Jews because German Jews were acting against German interests; negative business interests, spies etc. Or by comparing and equating the Holocaust to eg, the Turkish massacres of the Armenians, Stalin's collectivisation, the US's atrocities in Vietnam, Pol Pot's murders in Cambodia (Kampuchea under Pot).
I think what Marvin Prosono is touching on, is a central problem in history, the problem of relativisation. This approach which is favoured by a minority of historians, is the idea that everything is relative, history is in the eye of the beholder, there is no objective history, that all points of view are equally valid (underline equally). One of the themes of relativism is that interpretations is more important than facts. The extreme end of this argument is: all facts are interpretation. If that were so, there would indeed be a problem in distinguishing the deniers and relativists.
Relativism is a methodology that is not accepted by mainstream historians. I don't mean that there is a single methodology that is accepted by historians, there isn't. But there are ways of dealing with history that are legitimate and ways that aren't. What is legitimate, is that there are other points of view, other voices to be heard, other stories to tell. What isn't legitimate is when the historian deals with facts in a cavalier manner. By this I mean, when the historian either treats facts and interpretations equally or treats facts selectively as to draw illegitimate conclusions. Now when I refer to illegitimate conclusions, I don't mean that history or the historian is value free and that there is only one 'correct' interpretation of history. What I do mean, is when facts are selectively chosen and interpreted to draw conclusions that are false. This often takes place when comparisons are made, such as when we compare two events that have essential differences and use selective interpretations to make those two events seem similar or visa versa. The conclusion then is false because we have deliberately ignored some facts and reified others. I think that Ernst Nolte and Andreas Hillgruber and the Historikerstreit school have done that.
I think that if I were a librarian I would be inclined to label that group
as the Historikerstreit school and put them in the German section as a
separate and discrete interpretation of German History. However, having
said that, and keeping in mind Marvin Prosono's observations about Pressac
viz:
"What about Pressac's book. He had been drawn into denier circles but then
found reason to change his mind. He is still very much a maverick from what
I understand. There are many who are unhappy with him and his work and
would probably consider him suitable for inclusion."
I would end up agreeing with Marvin Prosono by quoting the concluding
sentence of his posting:
"This is not an easy problem to solve and should be approached with great
sensitivity."
Steven King
stevenk@tmx.mhs.oz.au
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:37:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Jerusalem Conference on Holocaust Survivors & the Second
Generation
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
Dear Colleagues:
Please excuse the earlier posting. Here is the entire article, plus addresses for furhter inquiries. -- Arieh L"tz
INTERNATIONAL REPRESENTATION AT JERUSALEM CONFERENCE
Over 70 mental health professionals who work with Holocaust survivors and their children in 17 different countries gathered in Jerusalem on July 3, 4 and 6 [1994] for the first time to discuss their clinical work and research. The Institute on Working with Holocaust Survivors and the Second Generation was initiated by AMCHA [the National Israel Center for Psychosocial Support of Survivors of the Holocaust and the Second Generation - address below] as a pre-conference to the World COnference of Jewish Communal Service [held later in Jerusalem].
The participants considered different treatment frameworks for survivors and their children, including hospitals, senior citizens' homes and various community settings in Holland, Israel, Hungary, North America and other locales. The conference paid special attention to working with the second generation, with a panel discussion focusing on current research in this area and a special [group of] oworkshops with therapists at AMCHA's Jerusalem branch.
Other notable presentations included:
director of Sinai Center in Holland, about a support program for German-Jewish psychotherapists;
professor of psychiatry, of her study of survivors in Poland;
social program for survivors in Hasselby, Sweden, [given] by its director, Hedi Fried
The event was co-chaired by AMCHA director John Lemberg along with Judith Hassan, director of SHALVATA in London and Bert Goldberg, executive director of AJFCA in the U.S.
AMCHA
23 Hillel Street
POB 2930
Jerusalem 91-029
Israel
tel: (02) 250-634 fax: (02) 250-669
Michael Klafter is the president;
Dr. Shlomo Tadmor is the chairman of the executive committee;
John Lemberger is the executive director
Friends of AMCHA groups are active in Austria, Belgium, England, France, Holland, Germany, Switzerland, and the United States.
In the USA, contact:
American Friends of AMCHA/Israel
c/o Schnur & Henzel, Inc.
1345 Avenue of the Americas Suite 3100
New York, NY 10105
In Europe, contact:
AMCHA Europe
c/o Mr. Maurits Cohen
European Executive Director
Rodenburghlaan 9
1181 PX Amstelveen
The Netherlands
tel: (20) 6459-985
fax: (20) 6474-580
NOTE-NOTE-NOTE-NOTE-NOTE-NOTE:
In addition to the useful and informative material found in the most
recent two issues of THE AMCHA LINK -- which I encourage interested
people to request directly from Israel -- the Jerusalem office has
prepared an excellent "annual report" for 1993, which discusses the
organization and its activities throughout Israel. This appears to be
a very noble enterprise, and has contacts, as can be seen, in many
lands, which can use the support of others in whatever ways possible --
even if only sharing news about their work with others.
Please mention this posting when contacting E.D. Lemberger. Thanx!
From: FLIM@let.rug.nl
Dear collegues
This note is partly in response to RJPrys@aol.com and partly stemming
from my own problems with the greatly differing survival rates of
Jews in the occupied countries.
>From the end of the second world war Dutch historians, like the rest
of the non-Jewish Dutch population, have felt a great shame about the
fact that between 80 and 85 percent of the Dutch Jews were murdered.
Nobody at the time, it seems, was able to do anything about that. Like
mr. or mrs Prys(?) they looked at the Danes with admiration, because
'only' 1 or 2 percent of the Danish Jews were killed.
During the last decade, drawing on the pioniering project of Raoul
Hilberg, Dutch historians have tried to find an answer to the why
behind these figures. Does the traditional explanation that the Danes
were very brave (and, by implication, the Dutch were not) still hold
true?
In my view it does not. I can give the following reasons for this:
I could go on, but I won't. My point is clear I hope. Comparing death
figures will not get us anywhere unless we take the local
circumstances into account. To do so maybe another criterium can be
used in comparing these figures.
I suggest that historians dealing with this material aks themselves
the folling question: what did it take, apart from courage and
determination, for a non- Jewish individual in the various countries
to save a Jew? For example: in the Northern part of Holland is a
small village called Baflo. Suppose there was a farmer there who,
having heard of the deportations in Amsterdam 200 km away, became
determined to save a Jew. What did he have to do, what action did he
have to undertake, to accomplish his goal? Was his task more or less
difficult in comparison with a farmer from for instance Linschoten
(only 20 km from Amsterdam). More or less difficult in comparison
with his collegues living near Orleans in France or Aarhus in
Danmark?
I realize that in order to answer these questions a termendous amount
of research needs to be done. Still I think that if someone finds a
method to do this, it will be the best way to compare the various
death figures in the formerly occupied countries.
Bert-Jan Flim
State University of Groningen
Holland.
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Speer and the Final Sol;ution
From: Graham_Forst@mindlink.bc.ca (Graham Forst)
Hello Warren:
This matter of Speer is made complex by an admission in the Spandau Diaries: do you remember him saying that he "didn't know about the mass extermination of the Jews but was in a position to know so [I am] as guilty as if I did know."?
That's quite an admission. If he meant it, it doesn't make any sense for him to waffle over whether or not Himmler spoke of the Endlosing in his presence. What do you think?
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Holocaust In Lithuania
From: CummingsR <cummingsr@RFERL.ORG>
Some of you might have missed this. Regards from Munich. Richard.
Lithuania Marks Anniversary of Jewish Ghetto Massacre
vilnius, sep 23 (AP) - National flags with black ribbons flew at half-staff throughout Lithuania today, the 51st anniversary of the nazi-led liquidation of vilnius' jewish ghetto and the deaths of 200,000 Jews.
Lithuanian Prime Minister Adolfas Slezevicius, in a televised national address yesterday, urged his countrymen to acknowledge their country's "painful past" and ask the Jewish people's forgiveness.
he said "The fact that several hundred Lithuanians were directly involved in the Holocaust demands that we express words of repentance and apologize to the Jewish people for the pain of deportation to concentration camps and the slaying of our innocent citizens."
Simon Alporovitchus, executive director of Lithuania's Jewish community said "We've been waiting for a statement like this for a long time." Alporovitchus told The Associated Press today that the only disappointing thing was that the government insists only a few hundred Lithuanians were involved. Alporovitchus estimates that at least 9,000 Lithuanians actively participated.
And,
By MICHAEL TARM
TALLINN, Estonia; sep 22 (AP) - Lithuanian officials said Thursday they would likely prosecute a Massachusetts man accused of Nazi war crimes if he is deported from the United States to the small Baltic country...
The U.S. Justice Department accused him Wednesday of being "a senior-level perpetrator of the Holocaust" when Germany occupied Lithuania during World War II. Lileikis allegedly headed the Lithuanian Security Police for Vilnius and took part in the murder of Jews, including a 6-year-old girl, Fruma Kaplan....
The Nazi-era slaughter of Jews remains a sensitive issue in Lithuania, where a large, pre-war Jewish community was almost completely wiped out. In Vilnius, once a center of European Jewish cultural life, 55,000 of the city's 60,000 Jews were either killed or deported to concentration camps.
In the forests of Paneriai, where Fruma Kaplan and many others were shot, thousands of bones are still visible under a thin layer of decaying leaves and underbrush.
Zingeris said many Lithuanians have not faced up to the tragedy or the fact that many of their countrymen collaborated with the Nazis....
Before World War II, Jews were about 8 percent of Lithuania's population; they now are 0.3 percent.
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: USHRI Conference of Hungary - Publications
From: "Connelly, William" <wconnelly@ushmm.org>
This is in response to the posting asking whether
there are any new materials being published as a
result of the recent conference on the events
in Hungary fifty years ago held here in
Washington at the U.S. Holocaust Research
Institute.
I have just spoken with Mr. Benton Arnowitz of our
Publications Department, and he tells me that
there are discussions underway on publishing
something which will encompass both the conference
held here and a similar conference held in London
at around the same time. Although no date has yet
been set for publication, I will post an
announcement to this list if I should hear
anything further.
With Regards,
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| WCONNELLY@USHMM.ORG |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| William Connelly |
| U.S. Holocaust Research Institute Library |
| 100 Raoul Wallenberg Pl., S.W. |
| Washington, D.C. 20024-2150 |
| Voice (202) 488-6109 |
| Fax (202) 479-9726 |
|______________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:42:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Historikerstreit
From: "David A. Meier" <DAVID_MEIER@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
The Historikerstreit
Those interested in the debate should consult Charles Maier's _The Unmasterable Past. History, Holocaust, and the German National Identity_ (Cambridge: Harvard, 1988).
In most cases, the positions of the dominant participants has been altered through a very public debate. Critics of Nolte and Hillgruber (while they have much more to go on now than they did earlier) often rest their arguments upon the so-called _relativization_ of the Holocaust. While there are some who truly do try to minimize the Holocaust by applying such a methodology, there are others (including Yehuda Bauer) who believe that unless comparisons to other historical events are made that there is no way to evaluate the Holocaust as a human tragedy.
Furthermore, let's not loose sight of the danger of the _exclusivity argument_ regarding the fate of the Jews. Surely, while every victum was not a Jew, every Jew was a victum. However, careful comparisons serve to alert students of the Holocaust that Nazi policy could just as easily have singled _them_ out as well.
As Michael Berenbaum put it -- to paraphrase his position -- it is necessary to acknowledge other victims of the Holocaust without dejudaizing the Nazi Final Solution. To be sure, however, the Historikerstreit includes considerably more issues than I have made reference to.
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Text Change in Wiesel Book
From: arieh.lebowitz@rex.com (Arieh Lebowitz)
I believe that all of Elie Wiesel's early books, and perhaps many of his recent writing as well, had been written in languages other than English, and were translated. If this is so, then more recent editions may reflect a variety of influences, editorial changes by the publisher/editor, self-editing by Elie Wiesel in later editions, more accurate -- or at least different -- translations, etc.
It might or might not be worth the effor tot track down what happened in this case, but since people now have his address, interested parties could, I suppose, point out the change(s?) and ask him directly.
Arieh Lebowitz
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Polish Rescue of Jews
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
John:
Clealry the issue of Polish assistance/resistance to the Holocaust
is volatile. I caution people about the claim that Poles make up the
largest
# of Righteous Gentiles. First, because Polish Jews comprised the largest n
# and % of persecuted Jews. More importantly, according to Martin Gilbert,
Dutch Righteous Among Nations is roughly equivalent to, or in excess of,
Poles. The proportion of Dutch v. Polish Righteous among Nations is far and
above that of Poles. Finally, I good meausre of the rescue can be
ascertained
by the attitudes of Righteous to saved Jews by their attitudes and behavior
after the war. For whatever reason, few Jews felt comfortable seeking out
and establishing ties with Righteous Poles after the war.
I would caution against using # and % to determine which nation was
most generous to "their Jews" during the war.In any nation, it is heroic to
risk
your life, and that of your families, to save Jews, Roma, communists, etc.
Eric Epstein, PSU-Harrisburg
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:32:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: contacting Tom Blatt about Sobibor
From: Howard Levin <howlevin@u.washington.edu>
Blatt lives in Bellevue, Washington.
Howard Levin
Social Studies Chair
Overlake School(5-12 Independent)
206-462-1227(h) 206-868-1000(w)
howlevin@u.washington.edu
From: herb@halcyon.com (Herb Effron)
You can contact Thomas Blatt through the Holocaust Education Resources Center in Seattle. (206) 441-5747.
Thomas just left to visit family in Southern California for a couple of weeks. Call the Center after about October 5. You'll be speaking (probably) with Mary Song who can help you.
Herb Effron ...for business matters herb@halcyon.com Seagopher, Inc. for personal mail seattle-usa@halcyon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:32:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need help in tracing sources
Ron - Delighted to get your address ! I think I may have the USAF Hist Res.
Ins address at home - I got something from them on Heisenberg a year or two
ago.
Paul PLR2@PSUVM
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:47:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Protocols of the Elders of Zion
From: William Mich Thomas <wmthomas@strauss.udel.edu>
I can tell you that PROTOCOLS is not in the computer catalogue here at U
of Delaware (I'd have to check the card catalogue to make absolutely
sure). In response to questions about how denial "lit" is catalogued, here
it's
under the subject of HOLOCAUST, JEWISH (1939-1945)--ERRORS, [etc].
Although none of the books under this subj. is actually denial lit--it's
all writings about denial lit. I also looked up Butz & nada. . . [I'm
heartened by the possibilty that there appears to be some sharp people
working in there]
William M. Thomas
wmthomas@strauss.udel.edu
Dept of History, U of Delaware
From: "GEORGE M. KREN" <KRENG@KSUVM>
Kansas State University has classified the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION as DS145.P7 P76. Special Collections (Non-Circulating). The DS 145 classifcation includes standard works on antiSemtisim, as well as Celine's Bagatelles pour un massacre, Henry Ford Der Internationale Jude and The International Jew, the world's foremost problem published by the Dearborn Publishing Comapny1920-1922
G M Kren
Dept of History
Kansas State Univ
Manhattan, KS 66506
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:37:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: What happened to survivors right after the Holocaust
From: FISHMAN%SNYFARVA@UICVM.UIC.EDU
Mr. Prystowsky,
Can you provide us with access information for the video on Elie Wiesel, "In the Shadow of Flames"?
This would be appreciated.
Charles Fishman * Email: Fishman@snyfarva Distinguished Service Professor * * * Voice: (516) 420-2031
English & Humanities * * * Fax : (516) 420-2051 SUNY, Farmingdale * * * "If the Sun & Moon should doubt, Farmingdale, NY 11735 * They'd immediately go out." --Blake
From: Gaston L Schmir <glschm@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
I recommend the following book:
Robert H. Abzug, "Inside the Vicious Heart: Americans and the
Liberation of Nazi Concentration Camps", New York, Oxford
University Press, 1985. 192 p
It is a small world that works in strange ways... just as this topic had
begun,
a friend told me that there will be a lecture sponsored by the German
Program
house here on what happened to German Jews after the Holocaust. After I go,
I
will report what I learned.
SRM1198@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Rica Mendes, Oberlin College
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:32:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Three questions for list members
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Richard:
I have recently visited Poland (Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka and Majdanek), Austria (Hartheim and Mauthausen) and Hungary. I am taking a class to Poland this summer along with another colleague. I can apprise you of costs associated with trip when I'm apprised.
In January, I'll be in Prague (Terezin) and Berlin (Sachsenhausen) so I may be able to share info. re. these sites as well.
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg
2308 Brandywine Dr.
Harrisburg, PA 17110
717-541-1101
eepstein@igc.apc.org
From: "Daniel Schaffer" <dschaffer@slaw.neu.edu>
|
| 1) Recently, I've discovered that Houghton Mifflin's
| original copyright of Hitler's Mein Kampf (the Manheim translation only??)
was in 1943. Does this mean that HM paid royalties to Hitler (or other
Nazis)? | If so, does this publishing house continue to pay royalties to
any
Nazis or persons associated with Nazis (relatives, e.g.)?
|
I remember reading that the American publisher of Mein Kampf payed
the
royalties into a fund for victims of Nazism. (As an aside, payment of
royalities to Germans during wartime would have been forbidden by the
Trading
with the Enemy Act). I regret to say that I don't remember the source: it
may
well have been printed in the edition of Mein Kampf that I read long ago.
Daniel Schaffer
Professor of Law Telephone: 617-373-3345
School of Law Fax: 617-373-8793
Northeastern Univ. dcs@slaw.neu.edu
400 Huntington Ave
Boston MA 02115
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:02:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: FW: Information about Grete Weil?
From: Jonathan Morse <jmorse@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
My colleague Miriam Fuchs, who isn't a member of this list, needs some information about a contemporary novelist whose work bears on the Holocaust. Her request follows. If you can help, please post directly to her:
Thanks!
Jonathan Morse
Dept. of English, University of Hawaii
I am interested in the German writer Grete Weil, whose recent book was translated into English and published as The Bride Price. Part of the book recreates the story of King David, and part recounts Weil's quick return to Germany after the war and her husband's death in a concentration camp. Because I have not found any references to Weil in studies of recent German literature, I would appreciate any leads, any information or opinions concerning her work and her reputation.
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Conference on Hungary 50 Years Ago
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Simone:
I attended the conference and don't recall any handout mateerials. All
presenters read from papers and may be obtainable through the research
arm of the Musuem or Randy Braham.
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg.
eepstein@igc.apc.org
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Rescue of Turkish Jews & Sweden
From: "Connelly, William" <wconnelly@ushmm.org>
This is in response to the posting requesting
information on the rescue of Turkish Jews, their
subsequent journey to Sweden, the possibility of
contacting surviving members of this group, etc.
There was a list published by the World
Jewish Congress in 1946 which should still be
available via interlibrary loan. Its title:
_About Jews liberated from German concentration
camps arrived in Sweden in 1945: List No. 1_.
--This list is divided by nationality (including
one Chinese national named Yang Sen Po, whose
maiden name curiously appears to have been Emma
Esther Rosendorff!), so it should prove very
useful as a starting point in helping to identify
surviving members of the Turkish group who made it
to Sweden. One might, for example, choose a
few of the more unusual names from the list and
check these against the Israeli telephone books
(which comprise only six volumes, and are also
published in English), or against the Istanbul
telephone book. One might also try contacting the
Jewish Communities in Istanbul and Stockholm, c/o
these cities' major synagogues, requesting
information on the listed persons.
Some may also recall having seen earlier postings
to this list announcing the creation of a Swedish
Holocaust Memorial and Survivors Registry by the
Swedish Association of Holocaust Survivors.
Perhaps they might prove helpful, assuming that
some of the Turkish Jews have remained until now
in Sweden. They can be contacted at:
Swedish Association of Holocaust Survivors
P.O. Box 161
101 23 Stockholm
SWEDEN
Or via EMail at: Romuald.Wroblewski@onk.ki.se
To answer the question of "who" was orchestrating
the Swedish rescue and relief efforts vis a vis
the Turkish Jews, I would recommend that while at
the library requesting an interlibrary loan of the
above title, that one might see whether they have,
or can obtain, any materials on Count Folke
Bernadotte. He was involved in many of the
Swedish rescue and relief activities. Even if he
was not personally involved in the rescue of
Turkish Jews, these activities may also be
discussed as background information, with
references to more germane works.
cc: Romuald Wroblewski /
Swedish Association of Holocaust Survivors
With Regards,
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| WCONNELLY@USHMM.ORG |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| William Connelly |
| U.S. Holocaust Research Institute Library |
| 100 Raoul Wallenberg Pl., S.W. |
| Washington, D.C. 20024-2150 |
| Voice (202) 488-6109 |
| Fax (202) 479-9726 |
|______________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:07:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Polish Anti-Semitism then...and now
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof Kniaz)
>From: POWER <power@actcom.co.il>
>
>I am unaware of the work of present Polish historians of anti-semitistm.
>I would appreciate references. In particular, I am interested if any
>research was done on the pogrom in Kielce shortly after the war. I
>believe that a detailed research of this event may shed some light on the
>question of relations between Jews and Poles. At the time it occured
>there was no danger any more of saving Jews, vice versa there a threat of
>heavy punishment on those who killed them. Still the massacre took place.
>I believe that the government archives on this matter are now available
>to the public.
>
>Aharon Meytahl
>
If you can read Polish, you can get some solid historical documentation in Bozena Szaynok's "Pogrom Zydow w Kielcach" (I don't have it on hand for the ISBN) and in Krystyna Kersten, "Polacy, Zydzi, Komunizm: Anatomia Polprawd 1939-68", Niezalezna Oficyna Wydawnicza, Warszawa 1992, ISBN 83-7054-026-0. In English, your best source is Michal Checinski, "Poland: Communism-Nationalism-Antisemitism". Checinski's book was the first to suggest that the Kielce pogrom was organized by the security services of the Communist government. Checinski, unlike Szaynok or Kersten, does not cite his sources, since his book was published before the fall of Communism and being mentioned as a source could have been dangerous to those who provided Checinski with his information. However, at least one Checinski interview, with a woman who worked as a secretary for the security services in Kielce, is quoted at length by Kersten (p.126) and credited to Checinski.
Krzysztof Kniaz, UPenn
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:22:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: The Gypsy Holocaust in Hungary
From: crowed@vax1.elon.edu
For those interested, please note that my forthcoming book, "A History of the Gypsies of Eastern Europe and Russia," (St. Martin's Press, Oct. 1994), deals at some length on the Roma Holocaust or Porajmos, as well as contemporary events affecting the Gypsies.
David Crowe, Elon College.
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Denial, Comparison, and Relativism
From: mork@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gordon Mork)
Steven King makes some legitimate points about the Historikerstreit,
but he confuses two important concepts, comparison and relativization.
It is certainly possible to do useful comparative history, noting
both similiarities and differences, without falling victim to fuzzy
relativism. See Robert F. Melson: REVOLUTION AND GENOCIDE:
ON THE ORIGINS OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND THE HOLOCAUST (U of Chicago
Press, 1992). Gordon R. Mork, Purdue
mork@mace.cc.purdue.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Historikerstreit and denial
From: "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@moose.uvm.edu> > From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Is there not a difference between the Historikerstreit folks (who may be distorting history, offering different emphases and speculations) and the deniers who are actually falsifying history by creating what Amos Funkenstein calls a 'counter-history.'
Thanks for bringing this up. It is an interesting point which I have struggled with. I remember that Norbert Kampe in his article (or one of them at least) on the Historikerstreit made the explicit claim that Nolte, Hilgruber, et al., were not to be considered like Faurisson, Butz, and the other deniers of the existence of the Holocaust. I question Kampe's claim. While the Historikerstreit revisionists stop short of saying that the Holocaust never occured, they clearly argue that it is not terribly important (consider Nolte's assertion that Nazi atrocities are overemphasized and have become a historical "myth"). I am not sure that presenting the Holocaust as historically insignificant is any less pernicious than saying it never occured.
Clearly there is a difference in tactics between the Nolte group and the followers of the Institute for Historical Review. But I am disinclined to be any more tolerant towards the the Historikerstreit revisionists. I have also noticed that those people who find the work of Nolte, Hilgruber, Weissmann, etc., attractive are generally more inclined to agree that the Holocaust either may not have occured, or that if it did it was not as bad as current historiography would have us beleive. Therefore, I suspect that the gap between Faurisson and Nolte may not be so wide.
I would be curious to hear what other members of the list have to say on this topic.
Benjamin Weber
University of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:31:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need advise on reading list for Holocaust course
From: "Katkin, Andrew" <ak5476a@american.edu>
I was wondering if I could solicit some help from members of the list. I am
trying to put together a reading list for my European History Colloquim
class
on the Holocaust and would like to compile a list of about ten interesting,
perhaps provacative, books and or journal articles. In particular I would
like to draw a few books from different categories of authors ranging from
those who completely deny the holocaust occured to those who attempt to
prove it through methodological means of finding purchase orders for
furnaces and Zyklon B.
Any topics, authors, or titles would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:41:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Speer and the Final Solution
From: <crjackson@ucdavis.edu>
I think you might want to read Matthias Schmidt's Albert Speer: The end of a myth (New York: St. Martin's, 1984; orig. pub. 1982). Particularly chapter 12: "Speer and the Final Solution: A Necessary correction."
Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis
From: "Paul Lawrence Rose" <PLR2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Since the entire Speer diaries - like his statements at Nuremberg - form an elaborate and very subtle defence and self-justification by appealing to western liberal sensibilities and categories, I woulnd't place much significance on Speer's statement that he should have known. Of course, he did know. I recall seeing pictures of Speer looking at slave labourers - "should have known "? He did know but didn't care to give it a thought at the time. PLRose PLR2@PSUVM
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:56:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Comparing Death Figures
From: RJPrys@aol.com
In response to Bert-Jan Flim's response, which is partly in response to my response--
To be perfectly frank concerning this entire issue, I would have to say that I try to be careful about using numbers and percentages when I'm talking about victimization and suffering. In many instances, I find their use a crass and not very promising vehicle for understanding and interpretation.
My most recent sources of information concerning what happened to Jews in
Holland are survivors and rescuers with whom I've spoken. What I'm
beginning
to see develop is--and this I've discovered is not unexpected in Holocaust
Studies--a far more confusing than clear picture of what happened, why "it"
happened, how "it" happened, who is responsible for "its" having happened,
etc.
To paraphrase Elie Wiesel (among others), the more that I learn about the Holocaust, the less I understand.
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Bert-Jan:
I strongly agree with your posting! Thanks for taking the time to clarify several of the issues re. to Holland.
Eric Epstein, PSU-HBG
epstein@igc.apc.org
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:56:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Polish Rescue of Jews
From: RJPrys@aol.com
This is such a difficult issue--emotionally and intellectually.
I would like to add a comment in response to Froma Zeitlin's important,
thought-provoking remarks. It's a comment that one survivor from Poland
told
me was a rather common saying among the non-Jewish Poles (in his area, at
least) concerning the Jews: "The houses are yours, but the streets are
ours."
Also--and this comment is not in response to Froma Zeitlin's remarks--I've often noticed that, when they are distinguishing between non-Jewish and Jewish Poles, persons regularly speak of "Poles" as opposed to "Jews." Survivors speak this way, non-Jews speak this way--pretty much everyone does, as far as I can tell. (Does such a distinction occur _quite_ as often when people talk about the Jewish populations of other countries? This is not a rhetorical question; I really don't know the answer to this query.) I have felt for some time that the semantics involved here are quite telling. I would like to know how others on this list feel about this matter.
From: POWER <power@actcom.co.il>
> From: GRONDEJO@LANMAIL.SHU.EDU
>
> Responding to claims about relations between rescue of Jews in
> Denmark and Poland:
> Among all nationalities, Poles are the most numerous among the
> Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem, even though only in
The statistics of the "Righteous Gentiles" is hardly valid. If such argumentation were valid one could infer that Spitzbergen in Norway (no Righteous Gentiles) is like Sodom and Gemorrah in comparison to Warsaw (some Righteous Gentiles). Nevertheless your other remark is quite illuminating:
> simplistic comparisons among occupied countries. Danish Jews were a > tiny minority highly assimilated into the larger society; Polish Jews > constituted 10% of the pre-war population and constituted a distinct, > unassimilated minority.Concealing 8,000 largely assimilated people
Isn't the first (and mildest) manifestation of antisemism as well as any other racial discrimination and prejudice the inability of the majority to tolerate distinct and different minority?
Moreover, existence and co-existence in Poland during the war was more complex. In the Warsaw ghetto there was a tiny minority of Catholic converts who still remained Jews according to the German racial laws. They even had a church of their own. Were they different from Poles? The explanation of antisemitic feeling and killings must have deeper roots than judging the other as "different".
I certainly agree that there is no place for sweeping accusation of Poles, of Germans on any nation. Similarly, appologies are out of place. There is a need for facts and their coherent explanation. Value judgments are easy, too easy.
Aharon Meytahl
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 11:26:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Pogrom in Kielce.
From: tkgierym@k-vector.chem.washington.edu (Tadeusz K. Gierymski)
Krzysztof Kniaz (kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) referred to three books, each of which more or less explicitly deals with the murder of Jews in Kielce, on July 4, 1946.
Bozena Szaynok's
"Pogrom Zydow w Kielcach 4 lipca 1946,"
Wydawnictwo Bellona, Warszawa,1992,
ISBN 83-11-07943-9
is a small monograph of 127 pages, dedicated almost entirely to that shameful deed. It's based both on previously published books and articles, as well as on government sources.
Krystyna Kersten devotes pp. 89-142 (out of 185) to Kielce; Checinski also discusses broader issues in his book.
There is another small book about the Kielce murder, namely:
Wiacek, Tadeusz, "Zabic Zyda! Kulisy i Tajemnice Pogromu
Kieleckiego 1946." Oficyna Wydawnicza "Temax",
Krakow 1992, pp. 5-148.
It contains fragments of press releases, articles, documents and previously unpublished testimonies by witnesses.
All the books have useful bibiliographies.
I do not know who Wiacek is. Kersten and Szaynok are historians; Checinski was a high ranking officer in the Polish Security Forces. Szaynok is a young, dedicated researcher whom I met at the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw. She was one of the presenters in a series of lectures, seminars and films about Jewish-Polish relations designed for the Polish high school teachers, and she spoke to them about Kielce.
The books cited above, the presentations I attended, and other sources all mention and discuss the likelihood of the Kielce pogrom being engineered and provoked by the communist security agencies.
While it is proper for historians to try to disentangle the entire background of that bloody deed, we, Poles, must not evade the truth. We must remember and rue the day when a mob, consisting of Polish men and women who themselves had children, set upon, brutally beat up, wounded and killed Jewish men, women and children.
To try and atone for this and other acts of violence inflicted by our compatriots on the body and on the spirit of Jews, we must acknowledge, expose, condemn and oppose every manifestation of anti-Semitism in our land.
Sincerely,
Tadeusz K. Gierymski
<tkgierym@k-vector.chem.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 12:21:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Developing Course on the Sociology of Genocide
From: BAUSTIN@ACAD1.MTSU.EDU
I am currently proposing a new course on "The Sociology of
Genocide" in which the Holocaust will be the major focus. However, I
want to look at genocide in a historical context - from early examples to
Bosnia, Rwanda, etc. If there are are those of you who have taught courses
on
the history (or sociology) of genocide, I would appreciate any suggestions
for materials, course syllabi, etc. that you may be willing to share. I
will
send a syllabus in a later post. Thanks.
Ben Austin
Middle Tennessee State University
Murfreesboro, TN 37132
baustin@acad1.mtsu.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 12:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Hungarian Gypsies
From: PHIDAS@runt.dawsoncollege.qc.ca
The Hungarian historian who has published several articles on the fate
of Hungarian gypsies is Tamas Stark of the Historical Institute of
the Hungarian Academy of Sciences (Uri-u 51-53, Budapest, Hungary).
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
phidas@dawsoncollege.qc.ca
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 12:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Nazi Recordings (US National Archives)
From: David Dickerson <ddickerson@igc.apc.org>
Last week I was browsing the audiovisual material menu of the Gopher server run by the United States National Archives and I discovered an entry I'd not seen there before about captured Nazi recordings.
For your information, at the end of this message I include an excerpt from the description of the recordings. The file describes a total of 64 recordings, including Heinrich Himmler's infamous Posen speech of October 4, 1943, in which he speaks openly of "the destruction of the Jewish people" ('...die Ausrottung des juedischen Volkes....'):
12. Himmler, Heinrich. "Speech to the SS Officers"
("Rede zu den SS Fuhrern"). Posen, Oct. 4, 1943.
Approx. 190 min. Item 242-256, 242-259, 242-257,
242-251, 242-252, 242-249, 242-264, 242-263,
242-250, 242-266, 242-180.
The speech has been published in IMT, Trial of the
Major War Criminals (Nuernberg, 1947-49), vol. 29,
p. 110-173.
The URL for the Gopher of the National Archives and Records Administration is as follows:
gopher://marvel.loc.gov:70/11/federal/fedinfo/natlibs/archives
To access the specific information about the audiovisual resources available from the National Archives (including the description of the Nazi recordings), use this URL:
gopher://gopher.nara.gov:70/11/inform/dc/audvis
The excerpt at the end of this message includes instructions on obtaining information about the availability and cost of tape copies of the recordings. I have written to the Motion Picture and Sound Recording Branch (NNSM) of the National Archives and Records Administration for this information and, once I receive a reply, I will gladly share that information with the HOLOCAUS list.
Please let me know if you have any questions. If you do not have access to Gopher resources and don't mind receiving a large e-mail message (about 46k), I'll by happy to send you via e-mail a copy of the file describing the captured Nazi sound recordings.
Cordially,
David Dickerson
David Dickerson / / / ddickerson@igc.apc.org
"In a world of absurdity, we must invent reason; we must create beauty out of nothingness." - Elie Wiesel
Gopher Menu Item: Captured Nazi Recordings (Excerpt)
SELECT AUDIOVISUAL RECORDS
CAPTURED GERMAN SOUND RECORDINGS
The National Archives Trust Fund Board
Washington, DC 20408
The publication of a list to a heretofore little-known
collection of captured Nazi recordings should require no elaborate justification. Serious historical inquiry and unflagging popular interest virtually guarantee that nazism and the Third Reich will be ever topical and relevant. Similarly, both the public and the scholarly community readily agree that recorded oral history provides us with a unique historical perspective on our times. Thus the combination of an important historical subject and a fruitful form of source material should, in itself, be sufficient reason to produce such a list, provided that the material in the collection is historically significant and does not simply duplicate what is already available elsewhere.
Of necessity, there is some duplication in this collection, but as the list should make readily apparent, it contains many significant items, especially speeches by Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Hermann Goering, Albert Speer, and other Nazi leaders. Most of these speeches are not available on recordings and many are not extant in any other form. Stated simply, the collection contains material of genuine historical importance.
But there is a special dimension to the value of this material that goes beyond general considerations of documentary significance and the appeal of oral history, for the heart of the collection consists of voice recordings, and nazism had an unusually close relationship with the spoken word. Throughout its history, the Nazi party and its leaders placed heavy stress on the importance of speech to publicize their programs. Hitler and Goebbels, excellent public orators, pushed the party into prominence by means of mass rallies. Through political speeches they provided the essential oral punch for the Nazi drive to power....
In the preparation of this list, our primary concern has been to ease the researcher's task of identifying and locating materials in the collection. Rather than simply listing the items by record number, they have been arranged in three general sections. Section I contains recordings of individual speakers arranged alphabetically and thereunder by date. Section II contains ceremonial performances arranged chronologically. Section III includes a unique set of radio broadcasts arranged chronologically and made by Allied authorities in the summer of 1944 that were monitored by the Germans in Lille, France. Included are recordings of intercepted code messages as well as one item (242-231; entry 64) that appears to be the monitoring of a meeting of British and American POW's in a German prisoner-of-war camp....
To enable the researcher to quickly locate relevant information, the following format has been used:
l. Speaker and/or subject.
2. Place and date.
3. Length of the recording.
4. Item number (the first part of which is the Record
Group number and the second part is the file number).
When there is more than one reel, the reel number
appears.
5. A descriptive paragraph, including a notation if the
recording is incomplete and giving comparisons with
other sources, additional information, and
cross-references.
Throughout this publication various file numbers are used. For the reader's information, file numbers containing the letters "NG" or "NO" refer to prosecution documents that were used by the 12 U.S. military tribunals at Nuernberg. Some file numbers are prefaced by the letters "EAP," which refer to an archival classification used by the Germans. The German designation "Heft Nr.," which is used before some file numbers, simply means pamphlet number. The designation "IMT" stands for International Military Tribunal. Occasionally a file number contains the letters "PS," which refer to a prosecution series of the IMT. Finally, in section III, the file numbers are the original ones that were used by the Germans.
Inquiries concerning the availability and cost of tape copies of items in this list should be addressed to the Motion Picture and Sound Recording Branch (NNSM), National Archives and Records Administration, Washington, DC 20408 (202-501-5449).
The National Archives holds large accumulations of textual, still photographic, and motion picture records that are closely related to the sound recordings described in this list. These records are located in Record Group 238, National Archives Collection of World War II War Crimes Records, and Record Group 242, National Archives Collection of Foreign Records Seized, 1941- . Several other record groups include related documentation that is important but less extensive than that found in these collections....
Agnes F. Peterson
Hoover Institution
Stanford, CA
Bradley F. Smith
Aptos, CA
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 12:54:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Developing a Course on the Sociology of Genocide
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
To Ben Austin:
I am not sure if this really fits in, but a powerful text in the history of
exterminations is the so-called Melian Dialogue in Thucydides'
_Peloponnesian
War_ (Book 5, chaps 84ff). The Melians wish to be left alone as neutrals in
the war between Athens and Sparta; Athens argues that, as a naval power, it
can tolerate no naval neutrals, and that Melos has no chance in resisting.
The Melians place their faith in justice and the gods -- the Athenians take
the island, execute all the men, enslave and deport all the women and
children, and send colonists. You will not find a more cold-blooded document
of extermination.
Gregory Fried
f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu
From: Robert Skloot <SKLOOT@macc.wisc.edu>
Dear Ben,
I don't know if "imaginative literature" fits into your syllabus, but there
are a number of plays written around the theme of genocide, and students
might
broaden their perspective of the subject if they read one. I refer to
several
of the plays in an essay "The Theatre of Genocide," in HUMAN RIGHTS
QUARTERLY (May, 1990), and I'll be glad to continue this conversation if you
think it
would prove useful.
Bob [Skloot@Macc.Wisc.Edu], Theatre and Drama, U. of Wisconsin-Madison.
From: Didier Pollefeyt <Jo.DeTavernier@theo.kuleuven.ac.be>
For the sociological studie of the nazi-genocide, the best works known to me are: Z. BAUMAN, Modernity and the holocaust, Oxford, Polity Press, 1989, 224 p.; Anne PAWELCZYNSKA, Values and violence in Auschwitz: a sociological analysis, Los Angeles, Londen, University of California Press, 1979, 170 p.; Helen FEIN, Genocide: a sociological pespective, Londen, Sage, 1990, 162 p.
Didier Pollefeyt.
Catholic University Leuven. Belgium.
From: "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@moose.uvm.edu>
Prof. Austin,
You might consider contacting Gabriele Tyrnauer. I now that she has been active in this field in the past. You can reach her via the University of Vermont's sociology department:
University of Vermont
Burlington, VT 05405
Benjamin Weber
Univ. of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 12:59:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Pogrom in Kielce.
From: POWER <power@actcom.co.il>
There another book on Kielce which is a collection of legal documents.
Stanislaw Meducki and Zenon Wrona (ed.) "Antyzydowskie Wydazenia Kieleckie 4 Lipca 1946 Roku. Dokumenty i Materialy. Tom 1. Kielce 1992. ISBN 83-900145-8-0.
The introduction is in Polish, German and English.
Reading the book of Krystyna Kersten (Polacy, Zydzi, Kommunizm; Anatomia Polprawd 1939-68) I was impressed by her quote from K.A.Jelenski, "Hanba" czy wstyd which may be of interest to participants of this maillist. It is in Polish. I hope the translation that follows is accurate.
"Since in Poland, except of ONR and the Falange (without counting many from the National Allignment, did not exist "coherent" racial theories on the model of hitlerite racial Nurenberg laws, one can assert on this basis that in Poland there was no antisemitism. Poles did not take steps against the Jews because they are Jews, but because Jews are dirty, greedy, they lie, have sidelocks, speak jargon, do not want to be assimilated, and also assimilate, stopped using jargon, are elegently dressed, want to become Poles. Because they are uncivilized, and because they are very civilized. Because they are prejudiced, backward and unread, and also helishly talented, progressive and ambitious. Because they have long hooked nose and that frequently it is impossible to distinguish them from "pure Poles." Because they crucified Jesus Christ, they practice ritualistic slaughter and pore over Talmud, and because they renounced their own religion and are atheists. Because they are scrawny, sickly, inborn losers and victims, and because they are physically fit, have militant groups and have "hutzpah." Because they are bankers and capitalists, and because they are communists and agitators. Under no circumstances because they are Jews."
Aharon Meytahl
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 13:04:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need advise on Reading List for Holocaust Course
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
I think that many others besides me will be very unhappy to hear you are planning to showcase Holocaust deniers in a course and thereby legitimating their claims to an equal voice in debate (your course is not one about anti-semitism or, more broadly, about counter-histories or lies masquerading as history. On the other hand, I can recommend Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men (he has published a short piece from it in a volume entitled 'Lessons and Legacies).' A new book, published by Indiana University Press in conjunction with the US Hol. Museum has brought out an excellent volume of essays, entitled The Anatomy of Auschwitz. There are more excellent factual articles with diagrams and figures. I would also recommend Gitta Sereny's Into that Darkness (focused on Franz Stangl, the Commandant of Sobibor and then Treblinka). And I would certainly consider including Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz (or individual pieces in "The Drowned and the Saved").
From: RJPrys@aol.com
Though I'll get back to the list later with some specific suggestions for
books, let me at this point say that, in my view, you would be making a
mistake to use books by so-called deniers and then to "counter" the claims
made in these texts with those made in books by legitimate scholars. There
is a real and present danger in suggesting to students something on the
order
of a two-sided issue here. I know that others on the list might disagree
with the way in which I'm phrasing or seeing things here, and perhaps they
can talk about how one might introduce the problem of Holocaust denial
without also legitimizing the claims of the so-called deniers. But I'd be
careful here. NB: If you have not already done so, you might want to take
a
look at chs. 4 and 5 in Lucy Dawidowicz's *What Is The Use of Jewish
History?*
Please let me know if I can be of futher help (as I said, I'll post more titles later).
Best--
Richard Prystowsky
School Of Humanities and Languages
Irvine Valley College
5500 Irvine Center Drive
Irvine, CA 92720
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 13:54:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Need Sources on East European Survivors and Red Army Occupation
From: PBOLTON@delphi.com
Eager for leads about how the organizations of east European survivors
Peter Grose, pbolton@delphi.com
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 16:04:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Speer
From: "Richard S. Levy " <rslevy@uic.edu>
I agree wholly with Paul Rose. Particularly in INSIDE THE THIRD REICH, Speer admits to everything before the reader can accuse him. This "confession of guilt" is what saved his life at Nuremberg. While nearly all the others on trial denied responsibility, Speer went out of his way to accept it. I believe he played successfully on the prosecutors' human need to find a recognizable human being in the dock, one who had some moral sense of right and wrong. Speer was always able to win the sympathy of others--it's what his career was built on. He was acceptable to Hitler and also to Goerdeler, leader of the resistance. In the long exculpation that is INSIDE THE THIRD REICH he makes sure the reader will see him differently than Hitler's other henchmen; he had better taste, he took no mistresses, he built himself a humble little dwelling, etc. In all the 500+ pages of the book, with plenty of statistics about cement, he manages only two mentions of the crimes for which he spent 20 years in Spandau: the use of slave labor. In the first case, he compares his "slaves" to Himmler's walking skeletons; in the second, he takes credit for persuading Hitler to allow young French workers to stay in France, producing luxury goods for Germans. Speer nowhere indicates that he wants to confront his responsibility for the crimes of the Third Reich. He is intent only on winning the sympathy of his readers--something he was remarkably successful in doing, I believe. John Kenneth Galbraith, who interrogated him at the end of the war, commented that Speer was so wily that he would either end up being hung or vice-president of General Motors.
rslevy
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 17:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: Speer and the Final Solution
From: POWER <power@actcom.co.il>
The last chapter of Primo Levi's book "The Drowned and the Saved" summerizes the correspondence he had with German readers after another of his books "If This Is A Man" had been translated into German. One of the correspondents took Levi's book and met with Speer. Although this exchange fails to give a conclusive answer as to the extent of Speer's knowledge, it sheds some light on the problematics of his presumed ignorance and reaction to the facts when presented in person.
Aharon Meytahl
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Alternative translation of Jelen'ski quote
From: avr@mttec.mt.att.com
Aharon Meytahl's translation of K.A.Jelen'ski's quote, which appears as the theme quote at the beginning of Kersten 1992, is accurate in the literal sense; as a native speaker of Polish, I would like to offer an alternative translation that resonates better with my own understanding of what Jelen'ski is saying:
Because in Poland, outside of ONR and the Falanga (not
counting some people from the Nationalist Party) there
was no "principled" racial theorizing in the spirit of
Hitler's Nuremberg Laws, one could say that there was
no Real Antisemitism in Poland. Poles did not beat on
Jews because the latter "were Jews", but because the
Jews were dirty, greedy, lying, wore peyos, spoke in
jargon, did not wish to assimilate; also because they
were assimilating, discarded their jargon, dressed
elegantly, and wanted to be Poles. Because the Jews were
lacking in culture, and also because of their excessive
cultural finesse. Because they were superstitious,
retrogressive and ignorant, and also because
they were hellishly brilliant, progressive and
accomplished. Because they had long crooked noses, and
also because sometimes one could not tell them apart
from "pure Poles". Because they crucified Christ,
practice ritual murder, and bury themselves in the
Talmud; and because of their contempt for their own
religion and their atheism. Because they were weak,
sickly, inbred losers and victims; and because of their
unsporting skill in sports, combattive neighborhood
patrols and "chutspa". Because they were bankers and
capitalists, and because they were Communists and
agitators. But in any case, never because they were
Jews.
>From K. A. Jelen'ski, '"Han'ba" czy wstyd' ('"Slander" or Shame?'). Translated by Adam Reed.
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 11:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Speer
From: "Sidney Bolkosky" <SBOLKOSK@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu>
What has struck me about Speer, who was, I think, profiled in the
Economist in the '30's as the "European man of the future" (bright,
affable, engineer with humanist education), was the order of his
confessions. Even in his interview in Playboy sometime in the '60's,
he accepts responsibility, culpability: mea culpa, he says, were it
not for me, the regime might have toppled but the magnificent effects
of the so-called "castle of ice" effect at the Nuremberg Rally made
the country believe we were invincible----would you like to know how
I did it? He then proceeds to give the details, the engineering and
construction of the mock fronts, the use of the lights borrowed from
Goering's Air Force, etc. He always tempered his guilt with pride in
his work well done; did his job better than anyone else could have.
That is why he was popular with everyone in power. One of his poems,
written as he fled from Berlin has been published in an anthology of
poetry--how sensitive he seems; grieving. Then, there it is again,
the enormous pride of achievement in his work, even after noting the
use of slave labor. It is a mind set that, although with us still,
must remain a puzzle.
Sid Bolkosky
UM-Dearborn
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
While I agree Speer clearly took a different course at Nuremberg than Goering, I think his life was spared in large part by his determination to countermand Hitler's order s for the destruction of Germany in April-May 1945. Some insight into his character, and that of the other defendants can be gained by reading the notes of the Nuremberg prison psychologist: G. M. Gilbert.
After reading Speer's autobiography, I felt that I was reading the text of a man bent on polishing his image.
Eric Epstein, PSU-Hbg
eepstein@igc.apc.org
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 11:12:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Vichy France
From: "Tracy A. Moran" <morant@river.it.gvsu.edu>
Hello everyone,
I was hoping that someone might have suggestions for sources on the mentality of Vichy France. My research is focused on figuring out what role the Vichy government believed they would play in France and Vichy's nationalistic perspectives. If you have any suggestions, I would really appreciate hearing them.
Thank you
Tracy Moran
morant@river.it.gvsu.edu or morant@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Pogrom in Kielce.
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
There is a book in French by Marc Hillel, Le massacre des survivants en
Pologne de 1945-1947, the bulk of which is devoted to the Kielce pogrom.
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Humor, absurdity
From: Kevin Lewis <KELEWIS@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
I write this observation as a teacher of the Holocaust in a state university in the South, as a sometime writer on the subject, as a resident of Krakow for ten months in '88-'89 on a Fulbright lectureship, and a five-time visitor to Auschwitz that year.
That ten months in Poland under the dying fall of the cultural absurdity which was the Soviet occupation was an education I could not have acquired merely by reading about it. It was nothing like living under the terror of Nazi occupation, but that brief sojourn in the craziness of the Eastern Bloc mentality (cf. Milosz, Kundera) altered my repertoire of responses to the world and altered me.
A relevant example. I got accustomed to Auschwitz. My wife and I enjoyed a good lunch with the Israeli film crew filming "Triumph of the Spirit"--in one of the barracks in the women's section of Auschwitz II - Birkenau. Smoked a cigar after. For the purposes of the film, a threesided mock crematorium had been constructed adjacent to the ruin of crematorium #3. I was possessed to climb up inside that chimney for a look around that awful but peaceful expanse, on a beautiful day in spring.
But what prompts this post is what happened when I showed my honors proseminar class the film "Seven Beauties." I was ready to see it again after many years. They disliked it to a man and woman. They wrote it off. It was nothing like what they expected and had grown accustomed to see in a holocaust film. And I realize that Wertmuller's film generally is now lost, buried, and forgotten. Perhaps because of Bettelheim's criticism of it in "On Surviving." Perhaps?
Bettelheim wrote, and I guess most have reason to agree with him, that we should not employ humor lest we trivialize, undercut, deny, and betray. He has a point obviously. But that Polish experience of mine, and a reading again of _The Captive Mind_, now gives me pause. If in the rejection of humor we are rejecting the viewpoint of absurdity (which grows out of experiencing the cheapness of life, the arbitrariness of death--throw in "The Myth of Sisyphus " if you like), then I think we are falsifying the elusive truth of the Holocaust. Or we are driving that truth (or truths) further away still.
Here, for me, is the clincher: Spielberg's corrupt, warm-and-fuzzy conclusion of "Schindler's List" in which Our Hero is portrayed as overcome by grief that that he could not save more Jews. I suppose everyone who cares about representations of the holocaust has checked this spurious ending against the text of the book to confirm that it is dishonest. It *is* dishonest and it gives comfort as false and as dangerous as Anne Frank writing that she still believes people are good at heart, and that all will come right again when the storm clouds blow away.
Could we have more showings and discussions of "Seven Beauties," please. I put Wertmuller's film up against Spielberg's. I like the discomfort it causes. I wonder if correspondents on this list share any of these perceptions or feelings.
Kevin Lewis
kelewis@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Sociology and genocide
From: THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU
Herewith some additional titles of interest:
Peter J. Haas. MORALITY AFTER AUSCHWITZ: THE RADICAL CHALLENGE OF THE NAZI ETHIC. Fortress Press, 1988.
Rainer J. Baum. THE HOLOCAUST AND THE GERMAN ELITE: GENOCIDE AND NATIONAL SUICIDE IN GERMANY, 1871-1945. Rowman and Littlefield, 1981.[Now out of print]
Alan Rosenberg and Gerald E. Myers, eds. ECHOES FROM THE DARKNESS: PHILOSOPHICAL REFLECTIONS ON A DARK TIME. Temple 1988.
Fred E. Katz. ORDINARY PEOPLE AND EXTRAORDINARY EVIL: A REPORT ON THE BEGUILINGS OF EVIL. SUNY Press, 1993.
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 13:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Using Spiegelman's Maus in a class on the Holocaust
From: michael rothberg <MPRGC%CUNYVM@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
I had great success last year in an introductory literature class teaching
Art
Spiegelman's Maus (both volumes). Not only is this accessible to students,
but
it is a way of getting them involved in many of the important issues not
only
of the Holocaust, but of our means of approaching it. Despite comic book
form,
this is not light reading. The father's story has an emotional power which,
to
many of my students, conveyed the enormity of the event more effectively
than
Primo Levi's "Survival in Auschwitz," which we read next. The story of Art's
relationship to his father and his father's story illuminates the dilemmas
that we who come after face. All in all, a powerful way to begin a class.
---Michael Rothberg, CUNY Graduate Center (mprgc@cunyvm.cuny.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 13:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need advise on reading list for Holocaust course
From: Eric Epstein <eepstein@igc.apc.org>
Andrew:
Perhaps the most comprehensive study of the gas chambers was done "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of gas Chambers." The work was (and is?) published by the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation but is very expensive. What is intriguing is that before his research on the book, Pressac was allied with the Denial camp.
Eric Epstein, PSU-HBG
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Vichy France
From: "H-GERMAN -N.GODA" <GODA@polaris.umpi.maine.edu>
Very quickly, here are a few of the standard sources on Vichy:
I think the best overall view of the regime and its aims vis a vis Germany is Robert O. Paxton, Vichy France: Old Guard and New Order. Paxton's earlier work on the officer corps is also excellent - Parades and Politics at Vichy: The Officer Corps under Marshal Petain. The book by Paxton and Michael Marrus, Vichy France and the Jews speaks more directly to the role of the government and the Holocaust. Also still a standard work in Eberhard Jaeckel's Frankreich in Hitlers Europa.
As for more personal studies of the men involved, there are a number of rather new political biographies, including Marc Ferro's on Petain, Bernard Destramau's on Weygand, and Claude Huan's on Darlan. All three are in French and I don't think that any of them have been translated. Geoffrey Warner's book on Laval is getting older, but still seems to me the best still.
Regarding the holding of the French Empire during the war, a very good book is by William Hoisington, The Casablanca Connection: French Imperial Policy 1940-1942.> There are also a number of works by the German historian Elmar Krautkraemer, including one on the French Government and the allied landings in North Africa (Frankreichs Kriegswende 1942). He also has a number of articles on, among other things, the dismissal of Laval on 13 December 1940.
There is also a very important documentary source published by the French Government in the late 40s called La delegation francaise aupres de la commission allemande d'armistice. This is a five volume set with the weekly reports, dispatches and the like regarding the French government's negotiations with the German Armistice Commission in Wiesbaden. The documents, are not, however, all in chronological order.
There is a vast memoir literature from the war, but most of this is apologetic in nature and should be used with extreme caution.
Hope this helps...
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:17:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: FW: Vichy France
From: SOCRATES%BRANDEIS@UICVM.UIC.EDU
As a starting point you might want to look at Henry Rousso's The Vichy Syndrome, although it mainly deals with post-war French mentalites ABOUT Vichy. You might also want to look at Paxton's book about Vichy.
Anna Socrates
Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: How do German Schools deal with the Holocaust?
From: RJPrys@aol.com
The other night, one of my students asked me how the schools (not the
universities) in Germany deal with/treat the Holocaust in their curricula.
Though I've heard different responses to this question in the past, I've
not
come across much relevant information at all in the last couple of years.
Can anyone on the list answer my student's question?
Thanks!
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
School Of Humanities and Languages
Irvine Valley College
5500 Irvine Center Drive
Irvine, CA 92720
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:57:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Gershom's _Beyond the Ashes_
From: RJPrys@aol.com
Is anyone on the list familiar with Rabbi Yonassan Gershom's book, _Beyond the Ashes: Cases of Reincarnation from the Holocaust_? Is anyone familiar with this topic in general?
Thanks!
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
School Of Humanities and Languages
Irvine Valley College
5500 Irvine Center Drive
Irvine, CA 92720
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 16:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Developing a Course on the Sociology of Genocide
From: RJPrys@aol.com
Prof. Austin:
Here are two other suggestions that you might consider: Fred E. Katz's "A Sociological Perspective to the Holocaust" (in _Modern Judaism_ 2.3 (1982): 273-296; Katz's recent book _Ordinary People and Extraordinary Evil_, and Christopher Browning's _Ordinary Men_.
Good luck, and all best--
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
From holoweb@h-net.msu.edu Thu Aug 22 14:21:47 1996
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 11:43:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Humor and Absurdity
From: charles gregory fried <f6ri@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
To Kevin Lewis:
At the close of Plato's _Symposium_, Socrates is arguing with Agathon (a tragic poet) and Aristophanes (a comic poet) that "the same man could have the knowledge required for writing comedy and tragedy -- that the fulled skilled tragedian could be a comedian as well." (223d)
Your posting about the possible role of comedy in understanding the
Holocaust
reminded me of this passage. Perhaps it is true -- but I have always found
it
hard to consider the Holocaust under the lens of comedy, for all the obvious
reasons.
But your point on absurdity is well taken. One book which I found very
moving, which has elements of comedy (in the distinctive Czech style) is
Jiri
Weil's _Mendelsohn is on the Roof_, a stroy of the Jews of Prague under the
Nazis. Weil's _Life with a Star_ is also very powerful. Try him, if you
liked Kundera and Milosz.
From: RJPrys@aol.com
Kevin--
You raise many provocative points, all of which I need to give some serious thought to.
At this point, though, I do want to ask why you compare Spielberg's fiction-making to Anne Frank's--what?--hope [?]. Aren't there some important contextual differences here?
Also, are you familiar with Steve Lipman's _Laughter in Hell: The Use of
Humor During the Holocaust_? Though I've only read parts of this book, I
think that I can safely say that the material contained in this text might
be
of significant interest to you.
Richard Prystowsky (RJPrys@aol.com)
School Of Humanities and Languages
Irvine Valley College
5500 Irvine Center Drive
Irvine, CA 92720
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Thank you for reminding me that I haven't seen Seven Beauties in a long
time.
I remember the scandal that surrounded it but I also remember that it was
deeply effective, particularly in its cinematic surrealism in depicting
the camps. I haven't thought of screening it for my course though. When
I want to scandalize, I show the Night Porter (Liliane Cavani -- another
Italian filmmaker and a woman, by the way, like Wertmuller, although the
actors are English and so is the film). I get nervous with sexual
fantasies for students of an impressionable age whom I've discovered
know far less than we have been led to believe. But I'll review
Seven Beauties and think about what you said (although I'd like to
avoid the Spielberg debates this time around). Froma I Zeitlin
fiz@pucc.princeton.edu
From: Robert Skloot <SKLOOT@macc.wisc.edu>
Dear Kevin Lewis,
I too am a fan of Wertmuller's film, and show it on occasion to my class
(and
to an NEH Seminar) on the Holocaust. Most reactions I get agree with yours:
perplexity, discomfiture and (in the "seduction" scene) disgust. The film
is,
from the extraordinary (postmodern) jazz collage that begins it, offputting
to those who expect (and want) a more realistic form and linear narrative.
Thus, the first question I have to deal with, and I distribute additional
contextualizing material to help with this, is why is this film being shown
in a "Holocaust class"? (It would be an fine film to show, for example, in
a class on images of modern Italian society...especially images defined by
a woman whose perspective on the cultural gender assumptions of Italy are
devastating and tragicomic. I refer to the film and to Bettleheim in the
last
few pages of THE DARKNESS WE CARRY: THE DRAMA OF THE HOLOCAUST (1988).
A number of responses to the film will distance it from the Holocaust story
by concentrating on its form or symbolism (not an unusual response to
any film). And the meaning--or lack of meaning--conveyed in Pasqualino's
extraordinary eyes.
There is much to be said about the issue of humor in telling of the
Holocaust
experience (see the reference above), but let me refer you to a play by
Peter Barnes, England's most wonderful politically incorrect playwright. The
second part of his two-acter gathered under the title of LAUGHTER! is called
AUSCHWITZ, and it is one of the most extraordinary uses of comedy, as well
as the destruction of comedy, that the literature of the Holocaust contains.
Your students might find this a troublesome text too, but it is well worth
the effort to have them read it.
About your comparison of Wertmuller's film to Spielberg's, I won't say anything at all. Thanks for your posting.
Bob [Skloot@Macc.Wisc.Edu], U. of Wisconsin-Madison
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 12:03:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: Need advise on reading list for Holocaust Course
From: "HIUSERS" <HIPIER@ruby.indstate.edu>
I do have one lecture in my Holocaust course on denial. I mention a little historical background of the denial movement, the major figures, and some of their arguments. I read some quotes from the stuff but do not assign them any reading in denial material. Then I explain to the students what lies behind the denial process and why it is so dangerous. I want them to know where it is coming from and why is evil--as a form of anti-history, an expression of antisemitism, and a threat to the existence and survival of Israel. I think they need to know the sources of this garbage and to be equipped to combat it. I felt my approach vindicated when a former student came by my office recently and showed me a brochure that a denier was passing out on campus. He told me that he learned in my class how bad this stuff is and not to give it any credence. Richard Pierard/History/Indiana State Univ.
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 12:18:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Re: How do German Schools deal with the Holocaust
From: "Sidney Bolkosky" <SBOLKOSK@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu>
Richard, To the best of my knowledge, Holocaust education of some
sort is mandated in German schools. However, like American schools,
teachers are free to determine what or how much or how they will
teach. The correspondence which I had several years ago with the
director of one of the educational institutes indicated they did not
appreciate emotional or moral approaches to the subject--thus no use
of survivor testimonies. Instead, the historical facts, i.e. the
statistics and details were deemed primary. This, I think,
eliminates any ethical dialogue. On any given day the parking lot at
Dachau is full of school busses, presumably paid for by the state.
The educational program at Dachau's museum seemed pretty good to me,
although it again was heavy on numbers. I think there is little
question that there is more Holocaust education in at least West
Germany than in the U.S.
Sid Bolkosky
UM-Dearborn
From: "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@moose.uvm.edu>
Richard,
I am currently writing my master's thesis specifically on how both East and West Germany presented the Holocaust in high school-level textbooks. (A comparative study actually.) I would be happy to answer any specific questions that you have.
In general I have noticed a slow development from about 1950 (when the first postwar textbooks began to appear) to the present. In the West the subject was rarely even mentioned before about 1960. Throughout the 60s any coverage of the Holocaust was cursory and often quite inaccurate. Things got better in the 70s and some books actually treated it rather well in the 80s.
East and West German textbooks were, of course, radically different, reflecting western vs. Marxist historiography. In the East the emphasis was on communist victims of Nazi aggression. The Jews and other victims got short schrift. There was also, unlike in the west, little development of textbooks over time.
The subtexts of both East and West textbooks have always emphasized a lack of continuity in German history. For them 1945 truly was a Stunde Null. Rarely, if ever, is there any reference to continuity that would imply that there is any connection between the Germans who committed these crimes and Germans alive today (or when the respective books were published).
My impression from speaking with Germans who went through the Gymnasium system is that the Holocaust is either completely ignored, or that they are completely inundated with material on it. Neither is a really effective approach.
I could go on for hours on this subject. Feel free to contact me if you have specific questions.
Benjamin Weber
Univ. of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu
From: Graham_Forst@mindlink.bc.ca (Graham Forst)
I spent some time with the Minister of Eeducation for Bavaria a couple of years ago. He gave me complete curricula for all three levels of what we call secondary school, then arranged for me to spend a day at the Gymnasium in Dachau (the town). I found the subject to be sensitively and thoroughly taught, by dedicated young teachers.
It should also be noted that there is presently in place a student exchange between Gymnasiums in Munich and Tel Aviv, arranged by the official I was interviewing.
At least, then, I can speak for Bavaria.
From: "Kenneth.Waltzer" <21409MGR@msu.edu>
Richard Prystowsky inquires about Holocaust education in the German schools.
Let me provide some broad outline to the subject. In Germany, education
policy is coordinated at the national level in Bonn by a Standing Conference
of State (Land) Ministers of Education and Cultural Affairs, which issues
national guidelines in the form of binding resolutions on matters of
political
education. Education -- funding, curricula, programming, establishing topics
by grade and teaching objectives -- is the responsibility of the federal
states. Implementation is then carried out variably in the local schools by
administrators and teachers (depending on available resources and
commitments). Textbooks are shaped by developments in German historiography
and, since the mid 1980s, if they deal with the Nazi era, have been subject
to
review and approval by joint German-Israeli commissions. Education in
National Socialism and the Holocaust has been especially affected as well by
the broad popular interest in German social history (Alltagsgeschichte)
since
the 1980s, which has shaped pedagogy, and also by events since
reunification,
including the rise of nationalism, neo-Nazism, and ethno-racial violence --
to
which much teaching is directed as a response.
Attention to the Nazi past in all its aspects -- Hitler's rise to
power,
the Nazi dictatorship, the abolition of the rule of law, political
persecution, Germany's aggression, and Germany's racial persecution of the
Jews culminating in mass extermination -- is compulsory teaching in all
schools(Realschulen, Haupstchulen, Gymnasia), National Socialism is the
centerpiece -- how it could come about, the impacts, what life was like.
The
Holocaust is treated as a central element of the account. Study of the Nazi
era and the Holocaust is mandatory for one half year at the 9th-10th grade
level, and is then taken up again in gymnasia at the 12-13 level. Aspects
of
the era are also explored in civics classess, religion or ethics classes,
and
contemporary literature classes. Schools often also arrange excursions and
on
site learning experiences at museums and memorials, documentation centers,
and
concentration camp sites. Teaching objectives are didactic -- to confront
young Germans with the dark past of their ancestors and their own
responsibilities, to counter tendencies among them to "normalization" of
German historical consciousness, and to lead them to an appreciation of the
values and institutions of democracy. Teaching emphasizes the relevance of
the past to the present, the utility of knowing about the Nazi story to
preventing its recurrence and to responding competently to contemporary
manifestations of nationalism, neo-fascism, and violence.
The above said, praxis differs from places to place. The above
applies to the former West Germany -- all of it yet remains to be
successfully
extended to the former East Germany. Practice also varies by state and
locality in the former West. In Bavaria, where Holocaust education is now
well developed, where since 1982 the crimes of the Holocaust conceptualized
as
"historically unique" and "singular" have been stressed, and where the Land
provi des special programmatic support for visits to Dachau and special
support for teachers in and around Dachau to work with student visitors,
education in the Nazi era and the Holocaust is well developed. Similarly in
North Rhine-Westphalia, where the fate of the Jewish people receive
"exemplary
treatment," special effort is placed in teacher training on the history and
culture of German Jewry and their fate in the Holocaust. Special emphasis
has
also been placed on encouraging students "to bear the historical
responsibility(of the Holocaust) and to oppose neo fascist strivings in a
political competent manner." In other states, things are simply not so
well
developed or supported.
My own impressions, visiting and teaching a few classes in Germany last
year, is that a generation of teachers from the 1960s and 1970s who moved
into
German cultural and educational institutions has done important work in
making
the history of the period central to German education, at least thus far in
the West. This generation has learned increasingly how to move beyond
moralistic, strident, didactic teaching, which sometimes backfired, to more
process-oriented teaching emphasizing student investigation, on-site
learning,
and student reflection. Some in this generation have opposed a central
Holocaust museum or memorial in Berlin, fearing that funds would hence
become
less available to local museums and memorials around the country, which they
employ as places of ongoing teaching and learning. I think many people in
the
United States would see many of these kinds of teachers as kindred souls.
On
the other hand, I also think that the vogue of local history and social
history in the schools has perhaps gone a bit far and abstracted a bit from
the essential political and intentional aspects of Nazism and the Holocaust.
The vogue of everyday history, participatory techniques, on site learning
etc
The Secretariat of the STanding Conference of Culture Ministers of the Lander in Bonn has a booklet entitled "On the Treatment of the Holocaust at School," (1991), which people can request. Best person to whom to write is:
Gisela Morel-Tiemann
Head of Division, International Relations
Sekretariat der Standigen Konferenz der Kultusminister
der Lander in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Nassestr.8
D-53113 BONN 1
Ken Waltzer James Madison College 21409MGR@MSU.EDU
Michigan State U.
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 13:43:00 CDT Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET> From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com> Subject: Locating Deportation Lists from Breslau
From: dharter@hhmi.od.nih.gov
I am new to the list. I have been trying to track down
documents relating to the fate of my maternal grandparents
during the Holocaust. Both lived in Breslau, Germany-now
Wroclaw, Poland. The last document I have relating to them
is a declaration of their personal goods
(Vermoegenserklarung) dated 9 April 1942 and carrying the
number 0 5205-II/472. Another document carries the date 18
& 20, 1942. I understand they were taken from Breslau and
transported to their deaths in Belzec or Sobibor.
I have been trying to locate train or deportation lists from
Breslau during this period.
So far I have contacted the United States Holocaust Memorial
Museum archives, the Yad Vashem archives, the Leo Baeck
Institute library in New York City, the Bundesarchiv
Abteilungen Potsdam (Koblenz), the International Suchdienst
in Arolsen. None have copies of the deportation train lists
from Breslau in early 1942. I have also contacted Franc
Polomski in Wroclaw. Apparently there are no such documents
in Wroclaw. I am in the process of contacting the Zydowski
Unstytut Historyczny in Warsaw.
I would be grateful for any suggestions about possible
sources or additional information about the fate of the
Breslau Jewish Community in 1942.
Donald Harter
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 13:58:00 CDT
Reply-To: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
Sender: Holocaust List <HOLOCAUS@UICVM.BITNET>
From: "Mott, Jim" <jimmott@spss.com>
Subject: Re: Using Spiegelman's Maus in a class on the Holocaust
From: "Froma I. Zeitlin" <FIZ%PUCC@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Speaking of Maus (which I also teach), does anyone have a bibliography on it? I have some journalistic pieces and two interesting articles (one about photographs and memory and one on autobiography) but I don't seem to know of anything else. I'd like some further guidance. Thanks. Froma I Zeitlin. fiz@pucc.princeton.edu